The Windmill has closed down

[Tim Lund]

Tim

We all know you are demanding more housing. Many of your points I agree with , many not.

However the argument about this Pub is nothing whatever to do with housing. It is the survival of a vital community meeting point.

I know MWAV mentions alleged tax evasion in every post whatever the subject and you are in danger of over excitement about property.

Please give Mary support for her endeavour for the community.

Sorry, Eagle, but I believe what Mary has done here will prove a disservice for the community. A building will remain unnecessarily empty, business rates which otherwise could have been paid will not, and if the Windmill does reopen as a pub, in a market which is evidently overcrowded, it is likely to compete in a race to the bottom, and the anti-social behaviour for which it was formerly notorious will resume.

So, badly done Mary, and I will not be pressurised into joining a deluded consensus (which if properly tested would be seen not to exist) in congratulating Mary for making a difference with all her endeavours, however well meant they are. Sorry, but I prefer things to be done properly.

[leenewham]

Mary, please carry on if you believe in something. You will always find some that disagree and some that do.

Tim, may I suggest that you carry on with your passions too. But I think in this pursuit of questioning with Mary's passionate quest to save a space for the community, I'd leave it be. There are plenty of spaces that could be housing.

The Windmill may become an interesting space for use by the community. I think Mary will eventually be vindicated by saving a space that may eventually become an interesting community asset.

As shown in Kirkdale, the developments so far to make housing out of old buildings have been disastrous. If you really want better conditions for people to live in, campaign against the rubbish that has been poorly built in Kirkdale like the white block with a (still unlet) retail unit under it that has blighted the lives of it's neighbours while their plight has been ignored by professional planning officers.

I think you are being unfair on Mary, and it appears, so do many others.

[Eagle]

Tim

I beg to differ . The area is much less pub'd that in years gone by.

The Talma , Duke of Edinburgh , The Woodman , all in that area , I believe have closed.

Only Bricklayers Arms and The Fox and Hounds covering a large hinterland.

A well managed Pub serving good food and beer is usually not a problem in the locality. One always gets the odd drunk , but they more than often people who buy rubbish drinks at convenience stores to get drunk.

I do hope you are proven wrong and a nice Pub comes to the site before long.

[Manwithaview1]

Tim

I beg to differ . The area is much less pub'd that in years gone by.

The Talma , Duke of Edinburgh , The Woodman , all in that area , I believe have closed.

Only Bricklayers Arms and The Fox and Hounds covering a large hinterland.

A well managed Pub serving good food and beer is usually not a problem in the locality. One always gets the odd drunk , but they more than often people who buy rubbish drinks at convenience stores to get drunk.

I do hope you are proven wrong and a nice Pub comes to the site before long.

Not forgetting the Dulwich Wood House...

[Manwithaview1]

Tim

We all know you are demanding more housing. Many of your points I agree with , many not.

However the argument about this Pub is nothing whatever to do with housing. It is the survival of a vital community meeting point.

I know MWAV mentions alleged tax evasion in every post whatever the subject and you are in danger of over excitement about property.

Please give Mary support for her endeavour for the community.

Your trolling is getting really desperate Eagle. Really desperate.

[Eagle]

I did not forget The Woodhouse. It is quite a walk up Wells Park Road , and not really in the same area.

Also quite up market . Does not seem to encourage drinkers , unless they require edible additions.

[JMLF]

I agree with Eagle re: woodhouse though is worth the walk/prices for the garden on a nice day

As mentioned, excellent post Lee and I very much subscribe to your thoughts and feelings on this matter/ the argumental situation

[Tim Lund]

Honor Oak Pub to Reopen
Breaking news on Twitter today is that the Honor Oak Pub (corner of Brockley Rise and St Germans Road) will be reopening as a 'British Gastropub' in August this year.

Last year the Forest Hill Society successfully applied to Lewisham Council to have this pub listed as an Asset of Community Value. We believe this has helped ensure it's survival as a pub, after rumours were received of interest from a supermarket chain.

This news comes hot on the heals of news that Sainsbury's are no longer interested in taking over the Windmill pub in Kirkdale. The Sydenham Society are taking the lead in ensuring the best use is made of this Asset of Community Value in SE26.

Maybe if the Sydenham Society can help get something like this:



at the Windmill, we will all be able to move on.

Gentrification will be better than empty premises.

[leenewham]

That's great news about the Honor Oak pub.

But why is it gentrification Tim?

People seem to use this term anywhere the high street isn't 100% full of boozers that are all the same, cheap grotty convenience stores that are ally he same, cheap haircuts that are all the same, betting shops that are alt he same and greasy spoons that are all the same.

No one says Tesco is 'gentrified' because it seeks some 'Finest' products.

I think we need to get away from the use of this word. Sydenham is not, and never will be Clapham or Chiswick. Sydenham is and never will be gentrified. But it will have a more diverse mix of businesses catering for a wider spectrum of the population, based on an offer that is more than just 'it appears to be cheap', which is a good and healthy state to be in.

[Tim Lund]

It would be gentrification because it's moving up market. As I said, it would be better than empty premises, and I'm not suggesting all businesses aimed at the less well off would disappear. You could say it was what would be expected, as poorer people are pushed out of London by excessive housing costs

[Eagle]

Have not been there for about 4 years and thought is was up market then.

Glad to see it reopened.

[leenewham]

Do you think the Dolphin has gentrified Sydenham Tim?

Did you campaign against the Overground, that has pushed up prices here more than anything!

But lets not get onto housing shall we, let this be about the Windmill pub. Aside from Tim's suggestion that it becomes a gastro pub (I don't think it's the right space for that, the building is to ugly, the space to large), what else could it be? A community space? Pizza Express? What could it be?

[Tim Lund]

Do you think the Dolphin has gentrified Sydenham Tim?

Did you campaign against the Overground, that has pushed up prices here more than anything!

But lets not get onto housing shall we, let this be about the Windmill pub. Aside from Tim's suggestion that it becomes a gastro pub (I don't think it's the right space for that, the building is to ugly, the space to large), what else could it be? A community space? Pizza Express? What could it be?

You're overreacting to the word 'gentrification'. I want attractive amenities here, such as the Overground, and the more we have, the more it will push up prices. There's only one thing we can do about that ... but let's not go there here.

Gastro-pubs are both a cause and symptom of going up market, while basic infrastructure such as the Overground is more just a cause. I don't have a strong view on whether we want more gastro-pubs, and I certainly wouldn't want to limit thinking about what the Windmill could become to pubs, gastro or otherwise. That's why I object to Lewisham's policy of saving all pubs, and why I asked Mary what would be acceptable parameters for alternative uses:

Will anything other than a pub be allowed? What are the possible parameters for a pub - e.g. pricing (so as not to exclude the less affluent), availability for use for community events, etc.?

Pizza Express would certainly be a possibility - they certainly can work as a nice relaxed place to meet up with people - and something flexible which would allow it sometimes to be used as a performance space too. I don't object to a supermarket either, but let's not go there either for now. It would be good if any one else's ideas for how this space could be used could be forwarded to the owners, but the only contact details I have is the postal address, from that LB Lewisham report I linked to. It is

Dr Gabriel Christodoulou,
St Gabriel Properties Limited,
Sterling House,
Fulbourne Road,
London
E17 4EE

If Mary or anyone else has an email address, it might be a public service to share this, and make sure that they can see the various positive ideas we have.

[Eagle]

If raising standards if gentrification then all for it.

Back in 60's Pubs were rather low standard. Full of smoke , few ladies , basic external toilets , probably no wash basin and if there is a towel , the same one all day.

I am glad we have moved on.

Tim
Re contacting the freeholder I guess we should leave to Mary and her colleagues who , I am sure , are working for all our interests.

[hairybuddha]

Oh God, please don't take the bait Tim.

[Eagle]

HB

What do you mean.

Simply logical that contact be made through one person , or group of persons , not to muddy the waters.

I know Tim has the community at heart , in this and all matters.

[Robin Orton]

Please don't take the bait, HB.

[hairybuddha]

Sound advice, Robin

[Tim Lund]

Simply logical that contact be made through one person , or group of persons , not to muddy the waters.

I agree, and when I asked earlier in this thread "What is the phone number or address for the 'us' any estate agent should call or email?", this is what I had in mind. Because, say someone at Pizza Express was looking for premises in the area, in the same way that Sainsbury's were interested, and they wanted to find out who to talk to, this is what they would need to know.

Eagle, and it would seem the Forest Hill Society, is happy that Mary should be this contact, and it doesn't need any of her personal details to be released to say she can be contacted via the Sydenham Society web site.

Where we disagree is about whether she and Sydenham Society are who we would want as the go-to people to represent us. I think the level of hostility shown by Mary to the current landlords in various thread on this Forum will have damaged relations, and her position on keeping it as a pub at all costs means she will not have the flexibility to be able to negotiate sensibly. As an alternative, I'd suggest one or other of the new slate of Councillors for the ward in which the Windmill lies, Forest Hill. However, the landlords and anyone else with a possible interest in the site could also look at the positive ideas Lee has started today, and any more which might emerge here.

[mosy]

A thing that worried me about Sainsbury pulling out was that they say (post of 13 June 14 timestamped 18.17) they couldn't acquire the land behind to enable rear deliveries. I wonder if that is a bugbear to potential pub owners also given how stringent planning rules are these days. Anyone any idea, or has seen the footprint of the area?