Croydon Canal route: Honor Oak Park to Brockley

[will greenwood]

looks like we have a difference of opinion.

I'm not at all certain this is even Honor Oak Park...

..it must be, its the only double lock on the canal, with 2 sets of gates..

also, when i lined up the lock keepers cottage you said that was right...which was even more to the west...
No, mate...I reckon the os map and the firework factory boundary are the markers here....
the hatching on the map lines up with the locks and everything....
...and funnily enough, takes the route way back to the original route we had...not crossing the rails at all....

[will greenwood]

I'm sorry mate..its not just based on that assumption....
not at all...
NO...at least check....
remember the canal was only 34 odd feet wide...9 feet at the locks..

if you look at the shape of the land, the only level ish bit is the area later enclosed by the factory...check the maps!

every lock would take the level of the water down another 6 feet, , and the land has been levelled with spoil before the embankment was removed, and after!

Please dont just throw this one out...

[will greenwood]

...and the idea of it crossing the rails is based on just as tenuous a theory....
so lets not fall out over it, eh?

[will greenwood]

...a couple of reminders of where we agreed before..
its very much back the way we thought......a slight compromise to the west perhaps...(but not 70 feet to the east , either)
I. personally am not sure about the more easterly route

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/223 ... 13af_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2123/223 ... 07df_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/222 ... b475_o.jpg

[Falkor]

We can't use embankments shown after the railway cutting to indicate the alignment of the former canal. The original route is wrong. I can't stress how accurate those maps are from the time of the canal. They are the best thing we've got the go on, and they agreed with each other. That's right: 2 different maps from 2 different surveyers, carried out at the time of the canal, both agree with the eastern route--before any post-railway embankment was ever formed. There may have been other banks before the railway at the time of the canal, which you quite rightly spotted from the shading on the 1833 map. However, we have to take into account how much earth moving must have taken place after the railway cutting. We can't fit the canal on an alignment based on a bank that ran along the railway, and the 1833 map showing what is most likely a canal bank just isn't good enough scale to superimpose onto later maps and inevitably show the contrast of 2 banks from different times. It's like saying "this is where the railway line ran, so this is where the canal run." It's true for the small scale, but not when you get down to the scale represented by the estate map and official maps. I will try and order that estate map for us in high quality, so you can see how accurate the field boundaries and ponds are represented in comparison with the 1843 map. It all comes back to this 3-way overlay with compelling evidence indicating the eastern route:

This cannot be scientifically proven wrong by using an 1860s map after the railway has been cut! The only way anyone is going to prove that wrong is if they find 3 other maps from the time of the canal that are accurate enough to be overlayed, are all in agreement with each other, and all show it running to the west. We've already got 2 accurate maps showing it running to the east, and so this is our best hypothesis.

[will greenwood]

Sorry mate...
you are really missing a fundamental point or 2 here...,.

firstly...the pools and leftover bits of canal DO line up with the embankment

the canal would have HAD to use the locks on the least steep part of any hill

and finally...where would that embankment have come from?

there is no other reason for an earthwork here tha I can imagine....
it wouldnt be spoil from the railway
..and remember the cutting is deepening and widening of a small valley anyway...

NO, seriously mate.....

you'd be mad to ignore the evidence on the ground...especially when it firs so tightly.

[Falkor]

...and the idea of it crossing the rails is based on just as tenuous a theory....
so lets not fall out over it, eh?

This debate is a good thing, and if anything should make us more sharper. I've speculated on a lot of things that you've shown to be false by supported facts and hard evidence. This is what makes us go forward, together, as a team of researchers! At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whose right or wrong. It's all about finding the truth and sticking to the logical approach.

[will greenwood]

....and another thing....
the locks would have had to descend and then rise again slightly to reach as far east......
up until this easterly overlay, we were on the same path....
I honestly think youre being led astray by poor victorian draughtsmanship

[will greenwood]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whose right or wrong. It's all about finding the truth and sticking to the logical approach.

absolutely!!!!

(but I still think I'm right)

[Falkor]

firstly...the pools and leftover bits of canal DO line up with the embankment

I meant the 2 pools shown on the estate map line up with 2 pools on the 1843 map. A similar excerise was used to prove where the bell pub had stood in Bell Green. This was done in a previous topic using field boundaries and a pond from an estate map superimposed onto the 1843 map.

the canal would have HAD to use the locks on the least steep part of any hill

This is generally true, but not always possible to stick to. I know the canal wasn't engineered perfectly in all respects, and suffered from structural problems, including flooding and collapsing banks.

and finally...where would that embankment have come from?

there is no other reason for an earthwork here tha I can imagine....
it wouldnt be spoil from the railway
..and remember the cutting is deepening and widening of a small valley anyway...

Where did the mound on the railway's eastern bank come from? We cannot answer these questions with any certainty. When the railway was deeply dug out next to a stretch of the canal, we also cannot assume an embankent--if it existed in the first place--wasn't shifted or affected in some way.

you'd be mad to ignore the evidence on the ground...especially when it firs so tightly.

I'm all for evidence, but only in respect to the correct time-scales. I know you've done a lot of work on this embankment, and it seems we are coming closer to intepreting that photo, but it just doesn't fit with what we know about the canal from maps surveyed at the time. You need to acknowledge all available evidence when researching a case, and not dismiss what fails to support an hypothesis. I think the next question we should be asking ourselves is: what happened to that embankment? When you do recover from your injury and get yourself down here, you will notice how much the scene has changed...

[will greenwood]

a couple of things..
in the shooters hill photo, there was a hill that seemed wrong...if you look at the contours...at the point of the circle in the crematorium is a hill...the ground fell away at least 36 feet from top lock to brockley way, if not more. ...tha canal would have gone around the hill...as it does with the curve at dead lane.
secondly...
as for where the embankment has gone...well, its apparrent in the photo that beyond the bank was raised ground....so, I imagine the embankment was used as fill for the lower lying golf links....and yes. i reckon they have levelled a massive area here

[will greenwood]

....oh...and you can see the scale of the embankment around the lock in that painting as well...
imagine as things are leveled and the canal infilled, earth would have been piled up to meet the existing embankments around the locks....and it certainly was used as a path, which, did diverge at lock 23...at which point, people would set off away fro the canal towards brockley way, and nunhead, as opposed to along the embankment down to the bridge at brockley vale ....
I dont ythink its as far west as you imagine, really....all it changes is the far eastern section..

[will greenwood]

..I hate to say this...but even without the meandering ...it could still be the towpath by my measurements....

if you match the cuttings on the maps, the bridges, the roads, and the leftover canal......its a perfect match

i'll be up to measure it all out next week...its the only way

[Falkor]

Will, using another one of the estate maps from Collage, I've got most of the field boundaries matched up, not just to the 1843 map, but also to the 1868 map. The few boundaries that don't match up are the ones that changed over the couple of decades since the canal closed. I'm just preparing the overlay now, and can already confirm the canal did not follow along the west hand side of the late 1800s embankment. Again, it shows the canal running very close to the railway line--slightly east at Brockley Way. I might even take the first estate map and superimpose that directly onto the 1868 map as well. Considering there was an embankment to the east of the canal and also banks both sides of the railway, this certainly got me thinking, but unfortunately I'm sorry to say there is no connection between the late 1800s western railway embankment and the canal. If these next set of overlays don't prove it to you then I don't know what will... I'm scanning the 1868 map now for increased accuracy. I will present every stage of the overlay process to you, along with additional analysis of the banks and field boundaries. Stay tuned!

[will greenwood]

...I'm sure it is directly connected with the canal.
also...you can see the lock chambers marked, with hatcching...
i'm gradually being swayed back to a route that just touches the corner of the flats at brockley mews...and teh overlays and measurements totally work out...
the canal on google earth is over twice as wide as it should be...(something to amend later)

you are very quick to say things are wrong...but that would suggest the roads are mapped right but the canal remnants arent...
the canal at lock 25 meets the hedge at the edge of the firework factory...the line of the embankment followed the line of the projected canal from there.......
you can see worn paths at the points where the locks were in both pictures...

in fact...your overlay also agrees with this!

I really dont think it worth ignoring the accuracy of the OS map over the estate maps...

heres a rough overlay of the pavilion, and google earth from the same point.....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2130/223 ... 7415_o.jpg

...and if the canal isnt here, next to the embankment...for at least locks 25 - 23...well, where exactly would it be??
I agree it may go more east after the break in the 2 canal maps( lock 23) but it has to be connected up to that point.
in fact..your recent overlay agrees with this!:roll:

[will greenwood]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2399/223 ... d31c_o.jpg

see wot I mean

[will greenwood]

oh...and do remember that field boundaries will sometimes ignore a canal or railway..and simply mark the actual boundary.
eg..if theres a 6 ft wide stretch of land on the other side of the canal from lord eliots estate..it could well be marked as one big field, ignoring anything that passes through...

[Falkor]

This is pretty high scale. Have a look at this and see if this convinces you...

Scanned OS map from 1868.


A different estate map from Collage.


OS map overlayed onto Estate map with 60% transparency.


Analysis superimposed on overlay.


Analysis superimposed on estate map.


Analysis superimposed on OS map.

Key
Red = matching field boundaries.
Pink = matching roads.
Light Blue = matching pond.
Green = Western Railway Embankment.
Dark Blue = Canal.

[Falkor]

I've just realised that the first, more detailed, estate map shows the banks of the canal!

So what's the conclusion? The banks both sides of the railway are connected to the canal, but not in the way we think.

[Falkor]

Canal + canal banks superimposed on railway + railway banks!

Once the canal hit Dead Lane, we don't know what the banks looked like because the estate map has limited coverage. It seems the western bank curved round at the same angle as the canal, but the canal was inside it (not outside it). The remnant of the canal near Honor Oak Park seems to start at the edge of the western bank, but heads in a more easterly direction to end up falling inside the banks. The mound near the tree surgeons could be a remnant of the canal's eastern bank near Honor Oak Park. I hope that's cleared everything up!