URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

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JRW
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URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JRW »

URGENT NEWS!!

Kier, the Livesey’s landlord, has been negotiating to sell the Livesey and its land to a property developer. The buyer says they are signing the agreement this week.

Today, Lewisham’s lawyers are reminding them that, as an Asset of Community Value, we have the right to bid for it, and to ensure that it is in community use. The developers want to redevelop the sports grounds, which would make the hall’s business unviable, as it would lead to objections to live music, or parties.

On Sunday, at 1.30, we are planning a rally for the Livesey’s supporters, which will give us the chance to take a photo of all the communities that love the Livesey, for press releases. Come and join us, spread the word, and lobby your councillors as soon as possible.
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 14 Sep 2021 10:27 Kier, the Livesey’s landlord, has been negotiating to sell the Livesey and its land to a property developer. The buyer says they are signing the agreement this week.
The property is being sold by Kier, a self-described infrastructure services and construction company to a company described by JRW as a property developer (not named or identified by JRW).

No significant change there. So save what from whom?

Livesey Hall has three disparate Grade Ii listing: the Hall itself, the boundary wall on the Perry Hill side of the site and the War Memorial.

There are no other listed elements at all and neither are there any "inherited" rights for any other elements or features of the site.

The listings themselves present significant levels of protection for the listed elements against unwarranted development - and no developer would buy-in any risk of failed development into their portfolio. It would be commercial suicide to do so.

That said the consultation for the Local Plan conducted earlier this year, had proposals emerge to "green" the environs around the Hall whilst protecting the listed elements thus making provision for a pleasant and usable space for residents. The area for greening embraces the bowling green, the now defunct and overgrown tennis courts and the dilapidated clubhouse.

I know little of the ACV for the Hall nor of the duration for which the ACV remains current. A maximum of five years from the date of first granting of the ACV is the mandated duration and it is rarely, and possibly never, extended.

ACV's present a 6 month window from the announcement of proposal to dispose for a body to form and constitute itself, express an interest in the property on offer, ingather sufficient funds to buy it and make an offer comparable to the market rate. There is no entitlement to discount the offer price and the seller is not obliged to accept such an offer.

There are VERY few ACV's in the country that have in fact been successfully implemented and at best (or worst) sometimes serve only to impose a six month delay on the actual sale being executed between the principal parties.

ACV's are a non-effective process which has putative values and efficacy. It is a time consuming and resource laden process imposed on local councils who must identify and register subject properties and who have more urgent things on which to spend hard-stretched funds.

Having said all that if a body does constitute itself I'll chip in. I like the operation of the Livesey Hall and the only improvement that locals see as important is the provision of off-street parking for days when it hosts busy funerals and wedding events.
JRW
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JRW »

Come to join the #LoveLivesey rally on Sunday at 1.30 pm, for a photo-op rally. Help show everyone how strongly we feel about the Livesey Memorial Hall's role at the heart of our communities. The group photos will be used on social media, and released to the press solely for our campaign.

You can sign up as a member of the club, which is free, and join the new Friends of the Livesey group. The membership fee is £2, and we hope that those that can make extra donations will help out. We need funds initially for publicity, then for legal advice. You can also sign up for the Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum, which will have some power to promote the Livesey campaign.
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

Alternatively go inside - anytime.

View the delightful interior of the building.

Become a member of the club that operates in the building.

It is well run and welcoming.

Not sure it needs to be saved - from anyone or anything.

In fact, if the council had not unlawfully rejected the development plans (their Counsel advised the Council it was unlawful) for the site behind the Hall, the street-parking problems we local residents endure would have been solved by now by the provision of dedicated off-street parking on the development site.

And the operation of the Hall would be made problem-free.

'Tis to be wondered if anyone who lives within two hundred metres of the Hall will sign up to or join any protest. Can we expect to see once more the omni-present "Lewishambles" banner?

Addressing the provision of off-street parking featured prominently in the response to the Consultation for the Local Plan completed in April 2021.
JRW
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JRW »

Perhaps you should pop in and talk to the management? They have been kept on a rolling lease for years, unable to take bookings a year ahead.

Buyers turned up, saying that the club would be evicted next year. No word from their landlord, who are refusing to take calls, or to respond to emails. If we don't show we want it to continue as a community hall, we will lose it.
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 17 Sep 2021 11:16 Buyers turned up, saying that the club would be evicted next year. No word from their landlord, who are refusing to take calls, or to respond to emails. If we don't show we want it to continue as a community hall, we will lose it.
Reasonable people would want to see substantive evidence.

If the new purchasers intend to evict - what are their plans for the site? There is sufficiency in the Grade II Listed protections to ensure nothing untoward happens in any work or development done to the Hall.

What is your stance on the provision of off-street parking for the Hall? Did you know this is a real issue for near neighbours?

There has been a happy band of non-representative people in the borough seeking to and succeeding in having a raft of properties both designated as ACV and Locally Listed. The status of both designations are ineffective - and as an example, even though the Gas Holders were belatedly locally listed (not nationally listed Grade II as the Hall is), they were demolished.

So if the clock is running on the proposed sale of the Hall and the ACV for the Hall is valid, there is a six month window to form a body and gather funds to buy the Hall under the provisions of the ACV statutes. What plans have you made and what sources of funds do you have in mind and are those sources willing to commit to such a nebulous venture. Will you be able to guarantee the funds to enable any newly formed body to make a bid that is greater than the current bidder's offer? Do you know what the value of that offer is and thereby have a target for fund-raising purposes?

Remember, Kier's is not obligated under ACV rules to accept any bid and certainly not a discounted one.

Do adopt a transparency, not present in some of your campaigns, on this one - do let supporters know what they are buying into.
JRW
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JRW »

Speak to the licensee.
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 17 Sep 2021 13:18 Speak to the licensee.
Why - what does the licensee know about your plans for a campaign?

Or about what plans the Hall's potential new landlord has?

Please tell us you are not building a very public campaign around a single conversation you have had with the licensee about difficulties they have making contact with a potential new owner?

Did you tell the licensee that there is an ACV order in place and that you plan to run a campaign to exercise rights under ACV statutes?

Do you have provision within your plan to extend the current licensees tenure or will your plan cause the licensee to be evicted should you succeed?
JRW
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JRW »

I was sitting next to Colleen, the licensee, when i read your allegations. She was pretty unimpressed with your efforts. I haven't and will never take any action without discussing it with her first, and I am doing everything I can to support her in securing her future.

Please check your facts with her, and stop making an idiot of yourself.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

Julia, fairly typical of you.

Name calling is usually your last resort.

Do you remember the time you posted a false allegation, fabricated and posted by you, (as yet not withdrawn) that all my neighbours must fear me ?

You have propensity to go low, Julia and with a significant measure of consistency. I have some pride in that I am one of a long list of people that you have made false and inaccurate allegations over a long period of time. Generally deployed when you do not want to be open or describe precisely about what you are campaigning.

When will you end that practice? You must know by now that I and most others disregard your commentary when you take this route.

I note you have declined to answer a single question.

Why do you feel invoking someone else's displeasure is the way to persuade others to your cause?

Answer at least some of the questions - just this once.
JRW
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JRW »

That is exactly what you have just done to me. Have you talked to Colleen yet, to check your facts?
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 18 Sep 2021 17:06 That is exactly what you have just done to me. Have you talked to Colleen yet, to check your facts?
Not at all clear what you want me to clarify with Colleen.

However let's examine some historic matters.

Have you revealed to Colleen that you and SydSoc conspired to have Keir's planning application killed off.

Did you discuss with her that your and SydSoc's ignorance about the need for provision of off-street parking, widely acknowledged by nearby residents, in the proposed development meant that when the application was unlawfully rejected by members (remember that Counsel for the Council advised their reasons for rejection were unsupportable) that a solution for the street parking problem was killed off by your direct actions. To the detriment of neighbours to the Hall who have to endure the flood of cars on funerary and wedding days and the operation of Colleen's successful business. Parking issues apart, Colleen's vibrant and well-conducted business is enjoyed by many local residents without substantive criticism.

Did you discuss with Colleen the rushed rule-bending local listing that SydSoc advocated and Sydenham Councillors supported in the application to have the Gas Holders artificially protected in an unwarranted effort to add weight to and for the planning application to be rejected by the Council [see earlier reference to Counsel's advice to Council]. SGN followed sound advice, supported by local residents and demolished the Gas Holders in the face of futile and unsupported SydSoc hostility to that decision to demolish.

Have you revealed to Colleen how ignorant and dismissive you were of the existence of her business at that time and that the Hall could degenerate into a nightclub amongst other things [references to your utterances within this forum are freely accessible] and as you alleged, to the detriment of the neighbourhood?

Have you updated Colleen on your failure to save the Gas Holders and your online abuse of the CEO's of Kier and SGN.

Have you been able to report to Colleen of any success in any of your campaigns?

In one of your major failures on the OLSPN matter, SydSoc were oblige to make a public apology when you over-reached and wrongly and very publicly and out-of-control terms accused the school of having let pupils enter the school without appropriate insurance cover and causing unnecessary alarm amongst parents.

Have you appraised Colleen of the risks to her business of having you act as a spokesperson for her interests and to the consequences of any arising circumstances where you have conducted yourself injudiciously and people react negatively to your actions and her business interests?

Accuracy is not your forte, Julia.

Its absence oft-times fails you dismally.

I cannot think why you want me to chat to Colleen in light of a more precise review of your history.

It is noted you continue to fail to answer valid questions.

Why?

Can we expect you to be candid and transparent or will you continue to conduct the discourse in your usual style of smoke and mirrors?
JGD
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Re: URGENT: Livesey in danger!!

Post by JGD »

Here are prime examples of how with regular certainty some "hard facts" quoted in one post evolve entirely into some other "hard fact" from Julia at a later date. It is not clear that there ever was a four year gap in the running of a club in the Hall as described by Julia.

In these discussions conducted in July 2018, JRW's express statement had the ownership of the Hall vested in SGN and not Kier.

Never did understand any reference made that included mention of a nightclub on the site or in the Hall itself.
JRW wrote: 9 Jul 2018 12:02 The Livesey Hall is owned outright by SGN, according to the Land Registry documents. There has been no actual club for the last 4 years apparently, although a new one is about to open in one part of the building. I can find no information online about charitable or business registration for the previous club. The Livesey is being treated as a company asset, and I expect they intend to sell the building for a commercial use.

Slicing away at all the Livesey's outside space will mean that any attempt to run it as a community asset would be hard to make viable. The bowling green garden has been left to go wild after the church tenants left. The club did not lease it, so couldn't be expected to tackle it, and the neglect began after the last failed planning application. Funny that.
biscuitman1978 wrote: 15 Jul 2018 20:05
JRW wrote:If you want an extension, Planning is very strict; if you are a big company with lawyers inhouse, you can ignore it completely.
That's not borne out by evidence on the ground. To take a local example, look at the Greyhound: unlawfully demolished by a 'big company' with the funds to appoint a decent lawyer, and yet now rebuilt following enforcement action by London Borough of Lewisham.
JRW wrote:By the way, SGN own the Livesey Hall outright, with no commitment to community access. Once they have developed the bowling green, what is to stop them selling it privately, maybe to become a nightclub?
The idea that Livesey Hall might become a nightclub is, in my view, idle speculation. A change of use would require planning permission which, I strongly suspect, would not be forthcoming. Moreover, there are, so far as I am aware, no plans for any such change of use.
Accurate evidence is all.
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