CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

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Nigel
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Nigel »

Tim
It is nice to start the day with a chirpy equal ops statement but I have no idea how your post relates to mine .
That this proposal is a, from a non UK organisation and b, supported by Boris Johnson , is fact and does not I assure you detract from my capacity to remain neutral until I have reason to think this will be good for Sydenham .
Good morning
Nigel

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mosy
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by mosy »

My view is very simple. The overview proposal says the new building's use would be to the benefit of the public and I doubt anyone would question that it would be a landmark attraction. I'll not support a view that blows the ship out of the water even before it's left the harbour.
Nigel
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Nigel »

Mosy1
Not sure if you are referring my post - if so I can't see how staying neutral until more known should be construed as being negative , much less so the maritime bombardment you evoke .
At very least , perfectly reasonable people may object on the basis of wildlife, light pollution , climate change , lack of transport infrastructure and changes to the skyline .

I have already had to endure Tim's little lecture on not being discriminatory or otherwise beastly - I do feel there is a place for a little reflection and if need be reasoned objection on this forum.
Good evening
Nigel

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Manwithaview1
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Manwithaview1 »

Is there a website with detailed plans?
Nigel
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Nigel »

Manwithaview
Their website is here :http://www.thelondoncrystalpalace.com/
For me it is fairly high level and does not quantify commercial , retail , sales or catering intentions .
Nor does it begin to deal with how people get there or leave .
Good evening
Nigel

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Manwithaview1
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Manwithaview1 »

Nigel wrote:Manwithaview
Their website is here :http://www.thelondoncrystalpalace.com/
For me it is fairly high level and does not quantify commercial , retail , sales or catering intentions .
Nor does it begin to deal with how people get there or leave .
Good evening
Nigel

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Many thanks Nigel.
Manwithaview1
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Manwithaview1 »

I hope it doesn't end up like the Battersea Power Station fiasco that the Conservatives presided over.
mosy
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by mosy »

Hi Nigel. Mine was indeed a reply to your post (timestamp: 06 Oct 2013, 22:15) in its totality whereby you seem to suggest that being broadly in favour of the idea at this early proposal stage is somehow an "unquestioning welcome".

I'm sure we each have a hundred and one questions we'd want to ask and satisfy ourselves about, eventually, but they'll all be irrelevant if the proposal is taken off the table. I expressed my view without comment on your stance incidentally.

A reasoned big picture question from me is to learn how the investor will recover his building costs & interest and ongoing return and whether it could become a publicly funded white elephant servicing investment debt since exhibitions, galleries, aquariums etc don't necessarily survive without grants and some intended to be self funded have failed (or become totally tax-funded) simply because people (especially families) cannot afford to pay the per capita entrance fees. If it is being sold to us as primarily for public benefit, then it should be affordable for all, not just those who can afford tickets for the opera and Wimbledon since the whole thing could be considered a prime site commercial venture if that were so.

In an earlier thread I asked about the building materials, i.e. what does "translucent" mean? (No mention of iron and glass per the original, so a replica or a poor imitation.)
Also about "Active façades"? Are they some sort of constantly changing advertising boards or if not, then what are they?
Also about being a "green" building, re power consumption. Is that what you mean by climate change? If not, not sure what you do mean by climate change. Being one of the two highest points in London, it could house a lot of people if London found itself under water - a future Noah's Ark? ;)

There was mention of park renovation, though that could mean no more than making good whatever disruption is caused by building works or maybe creating access paths or lines of sight like "all roads lead to Rome" to focus the new building, so another thing to reserve judgement on until more known as to whether it means genuine landscaping.

Not that what I think makes one jot of difference, even to me lol, but I do like the idea of the palace.
jonathan_har
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by jonathan_har »

Hi Mosy

Assuming the blurb is written in an architecture and planning context, the terms mean:

"translucent" - strictly speaking means a material allows light through but no view, but I'm guessing in this case may imply light and view e.g. clear glass

"active facade" - probably in this case a reference to the facade making an active contribution to the environmental performance of the facade, e.g. automated sun shades, Singapore Gardens by the Bay

Jonathan
mosy
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by mosy »

Many thanks jonathan_har. I hadn't a clue what active facades were so I'm happy that they're likely to be a good thing. It was the artist's impression that looked odd to me re translucence. I recall now that in the US in really hot places they can have glass (costs a fortune) which is miraculously and measurably almost perfectly clear in terms of light and vision allowed through but can avoid heat ingress. Probably "inside out" for British weather, ha ha, but could well mean similarly "posh" glass, so fine :)
Eagle
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Eagle »

Hopefully as smoking will not be permitted the building will not burn down again.
Manwithaview1
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Manwithaview1 »

Eagle wrote:Hopefully as smoking will not be permitted the building will not burn down again.
You are aware of the UK smoking ban in public places, bus stops, blocks of flats etc?
mosy
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by mosy »

Er, I think that was Eagle's point, which made me chuckle by the way.

I was wondering last night if anyone was around who remembered the original palace before it burned down in 1936. It seems very likely since if born in say 1930 it would make them 83 years so well within the realms of possibility...
Steveofsyd
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Steveofsyd »

Manwithaview1 wrote:I hope it doesn't end up like the Battersea Power Station fiasco that the Conservatives presided over.
As opposed to the debacle of constant failed initiatives Labour presided over....pot calling kettle methinks :-)

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Manwithaview1
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Manwithaview1 »

Steveofsyd wrote:
Manwithaview1 wrote:I hope it doesn't end up like the Battersea Power Station fiasco that the Conservatives presided over.
As opposed to the debacle of constant failed initiatives Labour presided over....pot calling kettle methinks :-)

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I'm sure lots of Labour PMs had photo calls with wealthy investors saying they would do this and that.

Not many are on Google images. Not sure why
Sid Nam
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Sid Nam »

Hello all.

At first I thought this was great until I read through the development brochure that says the site will only be “similar” to the original building in size, outline, and scale and “up to six stories high”, with an internal construction that deliberately allows “An adaptable and flexible internal” space for business uses and “sales rooms”. And it has been reported that the site is considering a 3000 space underground car park to service its intended functions and events.

The O2 arena is advertised as having 2,000 parking spaces, for a capacity of up to 20,000, and has a tube service. So, the planned 3000 car park for this new development indicates the true scale of potential internal functions.

It looks as though the primary usage of this building, which is longer than the Shard is tall and has potential to provide twice the Shards "adaptable and flexible internal space", is for offices, retail and "top end" hotel. With public access for expos, conferences and viewing of the owner's personal art and gem collections restricted to the ground floor.

This has the potential to turn Sydenham High Street into a car park, not to mention the battle those of us who live here will face each time we commute or leave our homes. This comes across to me as a commercial project dressed up as a heritage one so it can be built in a public park.

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Manwithaview1
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Manwithaview1 »

I believe the Transmitter is in the way.
leenewham
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by leenewham »

I think the reason it says 'similar' is due to the mast, which is within the original footprint of the palace.

The document also says: "the new palace will replicate the size and scale of the original"

Here is some more info on ZhongRong Holdings http://www.gemus.org/en/nd.jsp?id=25&_np=4_425

Link to the brochure here:http://www.thelondoncrystalpalace.com/u ... lowres.pdf

Link to companies website here: http://www.china-zrg.com/cn/index.html

I can't find anything negative about them online and they do seem to be very heavily angled towards quality projects and the arts.
Sid Nam
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by Sid Nam »

Thanks for the links Lee, looks like the company mainly works in the oil and property markets.
http://www.capitalenergy.ca/investors/z ... -group.htm

http://shanghai.chinadaily.com.cn/lujia ... 179072.htm

The reference to arts and culture appears to be that it has built a Conference centre in Pudong, a tower in the financial district of Shanghai and palaces that contain the owner's art and gem collections. Must say I have not been concerned with the company behind it - should I be?

What I am concerned about is the high levels of traffic that this proposal has the potential to attract. As there are no details about the anticipated scale and frequency of events it is hard to draw any firm conclusion but it is unrealistic to dismiss concerns about traffic on the grounds that the NSC has hosted the occasional concert and international track event.

Is it realistic to compare public transport connections to the South Bank with those of Crystal Palace?

The increase this proposal is likely to have on traffic levels and demand for improved public transport needs to be properly addressed before I can become a CP cheerleader.

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SE19
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Re: CRYSTAL PALACE PLANS TO BE UNVEILED

Post by SE19 »

Good discussion on the detail of the development brochure, so I have researched this some more. It seems to me that some people are being unwittingly misled by poor press statements. Statements in the news headlines like “Plans to build a replica of the Crystal Palace” are simply wrong, based on what Arup have said in the brochure. Arup have not stated in their launch brochure they will rebuild a replica Palace. What they did say was the “palace will replicate the size and scale of the original”. Note, they are not saying they will replicate the original outline and footprint (these two aspects are left only to be “similar”). This new building is not, nor is intended to be a replica and rebuild of the original details inside, nor a replica of the original outside outline, nor the replica of the original details in the Park as far the brochure goes. Arup have been very precise in their media communications. My observations on the carefully used words in the Media prospectus: http://www.thelondoncrystalpalace.com/ below:

Replica”. Used once in the prospectus to state:
palace will replicate the size and scale of the original

Recreate”: Note, the word is not being used to confirm recreating any specific original details, instead it only used as in:
My intention is to recreate the Palace…
recreation of a major attraction for London

Original”. Used with vague and woolly adjectives as
reflects Paxton’s original design”,
guided by the internal spatial qualities of the original palace”,
a translucent and delicate structure similar to the original building

Heritage”. Used with vague and woolly adjectives as:
design solutions that are responsive to the surrounding heritage landscape”,
Design is carefully considered and responds to the site’s heritage and context

Rebuild”. Used in simple statements of:
This proposal is to rebuild the Crystal Palace
In other sentences the new construction is just a “building” as in “The new building in itself will be an attraction for the public
There are no specific original building detailing that are said to be, or are being considered, to be “rebuilt”.
Indeed, what is repeated, is calling the new main building the “new crystal palace development”.

Restored”. Used as a woolly word. May mean if an existing relic is already in the Park it could be “restored”. Or used as reference to nostalgia and what “local people” want as in:
there is still a great love and admiration for the park amongst local people – and Londoners – many of whom are keen to see it restored to its former glory
this proposal is to rebuild the crystal palace on the ‘top site’ and to restore and upgrade the park to match the spirit and form of the original design.”
The Park will be restored In line with the approved Masterplan to create a Modern 21st century park of national importance which reflects Joseph Paxton’s original ideas…”
Or, as in “This project - the Palace and restoration of the whole park”.
The site is an important heritage asset and includes a number of listed structures; these features will be celebrated and enhanced as part of this proposal.

Reinstated”. Used once as a woolly word for the “Paxton Axis Reinstated” . Note. This was originally called the “Grand Centre Walkway”. Fascinating, it is now renamed as just an “axis”. So, this “reinstated” may mean this “Centre Walkway” may not be in the exactly the same line/orientations as before. This is significant. As “current constraints of the site such as the television mast” means the new building is physically impossible to be in same location as the original (as the Palace had its North Transept spot on the site of the current Mast). Meaning. If a new building is instead “slotted” in next to the Mast, it cannot line up centrally with the original (and remaining) Grand Centre Walkway. Yet, the original Palace design and heritage was its relationship with the Park, and how the main building’s Central Transept and the two Wings did align centrally with the Grand Centre Walkway.

Nature”. “As in The nature of the new building lends itself” probably means something radical is changing that is changing the status quo at the site and impacting locally (e.g need for Controlled Parking Zones around the site in local boundary streets and Wards). Or woolly as in “respond sensitively to the site’s characteristics, including its designation as Metropolitan open land and nature conservation value

For example… it says the “Restored Italian Terrace” (Pg4) and illustrated in the “Vision”. Seems nothing like the original to me, with none of the original fountains being “rebuilt” as a similar shape or design. Just an area ideal for Hyde Park style open events and concerts for “One-off events in the park” to create “business opportunities”.

I am concerned the draft “Design Principles” do not consider: upper maximum internal cubic feet capacity, car park size requirements, internal person capacity, or event sizes (eg. if Terrace grounds or internal auditoriums used for mass public events like now regularly at Hyde Park or internally at O2 Arena events), or provide size apportionment of internal spaces for “gallery” or offices or “sales units” etc? Isn’t agreeing the function and scale of use of the building of equal importance as the overall external “design”?

So, what is the scale of this potential building? Please see attached draft outline, assuming a new building is close to the same overall width of the Central Transept, and fits inside of the Mast (red). As you see, it is comparable to whole of the Triangle under one roof (blue). Yet this is smaller than the original (outside wings in dotted yellow lines).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/105322885@N06/10257977765/

Note, developers want to build up to 6 storeys. The original Palace was 5 storeys from the main ground floor up (on Parade road side). The basement floor was needed to accommodate the then original hill slope, and so had a relatively narrower public gallery running along the garden side. As the Top Site has now had significant amount of infill that has levelled much of the original building’s footprint, how can a new building be of “six” storeys on the Parade side?

I assume the “replacement” car park has to be at least 3000 space. I will double check, but I have seen reported the current car park at Crystal Palace can be up to 3000 spaces to cater for “special events”. So I doubt if the area can be remodelled with less parking to sustain current range of activities, otherwise local side streets will be overwhelmed at large events.

But Arup have stated that house prices will potentially go up due to his proposal, and now re-stated by Bromley to their Executive:
http://cds.bromley.g....aspx?IId=25513

3.17 Arup’s estimate the following additional benefits: The new Palace and the restoration of the park would potentially yield benefits in its surrounding areas by increasing the attractiveness of neighbourhoods, adding value to commercial and residential properties and attracting increased investment.

Why? Heavy and more near grid locked traffic for longer periods, unable to park locally on side streets, and likely controlled parking zones, regular large crowds going to possibly 02 Arena size events means possibly regular huge concentration of public trips entering/leaving at key times. A monolithic sized building, with the (current) potential for a “theme park” attractions or a mass public entertainment venue, why would house prices be higher value?

I believe transport concerns are as important now as they were in 1865 when about 2m visitors were visiting per year to the Palace (although the busiest station was probably the (current) Low Level Station, and not the "new" High Level Station that opened in 1865).

Indeed, Bromley Council are already saying:

http://cds.bromley.g....aspx?IId=25513

3.18 The Palace and park proposals would form a new visitor attraction potentially generating a significant number of new trips. …. it would be important to ensure that these trips do not place unsustainable pressures on the transport network. Transport concerns are of critical importance, both locally and regionally, and these will need to be properly addressed. … Minimising the impact of the development on the local road network would also need to be an important part of the proposal.

3.21 On the assumption that the proposal progresses, there are a number of planning, legal and technical issues which would need to be resolved… As the land is classified as Metropolitan Open Land (MOL), ‘very special circumstances’ would need to be clearly identified to justify the proposal. Furthermore, an application of this type would effectively require GLA approval and possibly also Government approval. In addition, the 1990 Crystal Palace Act would need to be amended.

Members are recommended: 2.1 To agree, subject to Members’ consideration of legal and procurement matters outlined in a separate Part 2 report, to grant ZhongRong International (Group) Limited an exclusivity agreement for a period of sixteen months (until 1st February 2015) to allow for further negotiations to establish whether an acceptable scheme can be developed.

So, just how can the design and supplier of this building and use of MOL park land be agreed, when the function, scale, and intended use are not pre-agreed, and outside of scope of the Masterplan as far I can tell.

SE19
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