Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

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fishcox
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Joined: 4 Mar 2005 13:55
Location: lawrie park road

Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by fishcox »

Apologies for ressurrecting old topics - but has there actually been any sort of update on the Greyhound?

I have not seen a single thing done to it for months, and it seriously looks though someone is waiting for it to fall into such disrepair, that it will need to be pulled down.

Tim Lund
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Tim Lund »

There was a reference to on-going negotiations between the developers, PureLake, and Lewisham Planning in the SydSoc newsletter which came through members' doors recently. I'm not at home ATM, so cannot quote anything.

gerispringer
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by gerispringer »

As it is now so dwarfed by the flats, wouldn't it be better to pull it down and have an nice open square there?

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Tim Lund
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Tim Lund »

Image

For more on the Sydenham Society, and how to join, here is their web site.

gillyjp
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by gillyjp »

In response to Gerispringer - please be advised that if the Sydenham Society hadn't stuck their oar in about this years ago - demanding that the pub be kept, along with many others on this site who would never dream of frequenting it anyway - even once it was refurbed, we would not be in the situation we are in now, i.e, with a derelict pub nowhere near completion, that, even if and when refurbed, is dwarfed by the flats behind and just looks ridiculous.

We residents that live in the road behind (and are most affected by this development) made pleas on this very site regarding this pub and the nonsense being bandied about by said Syd. Soc. about it should be a listed building and should be kept as is. they even got the surrounding area declared a conservation area to get round not knocking the damn thing down. If you care to dig deep into this site you will find my many posts of despair on this very subject.

So, thanks to all the 'do-gooders' we are left with a complete white elephant and are no nearer any resolution with this issue. I have said it before and I will re-iterate it here and now - they need to knock what remains of this pub down and build a pocket park or green area, plants, greenery and flowers and give Sydenham something it can be proud of and a true 'Gateway' to Sydenham.

It's time the Sydenham Society woke up and put their energies elsewhere instead of objecting to things just for the sake of it and to be seen to be doing the right thing. If they wanted to be the voice of Sydenham and claim to be representative of the area, they should have listened, in this particular case, to the immediate neighbours of this development who were, and continue to be most affected by their meddling. If it wasn't for us residents objecting to the height of this development, it would be another storey higher and contain 70+ flats. Instead we got it lowered and many fewer flats, with NO support from the Syd. Soc. who would have quite happily rolled over and let it be built at the original height. What a shameful saga and one that could have been avoided.

Annie.
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Annie. »

So,I gather you are happy with all the flats that are there?
Personally I would be pretty miffed that a pub that has been around a lot longer than us, which shut it doors each night when everyone went home, should be replaced with boring,dreadful,bland looking flats,with, I must say the potential to emit noise at any time day and night, should be classed as the "Gateway" to Sydenham!
Sydenham has been ruined by this development.

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gillyjp
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by gillyjp »

No Annie we are not happy with the flats that are there since they block out a considerable amount of light from not only our gardens but also our kitchen and bedroom windows. However we fought this planning application long and hard and got the development one storey lower than was intended and far fewer flats. That was the best compromise we could achieve - given that no one from the Syd. Soc. supported us in our actions because they had their own agendas. We have however learned to live with this compromise and the reality of what is there now.

I have always pleaded for a bit of green space at the front - it doesnt have to be more flats. We also made the point at the relevant planning meeting about there being only 7 (2 of which are disabled) parking spaces for the whole of the development. But of course Lewisham knew best. They shut their ears to our protestations about the lack of parking spaces and how the surrounding roads would be full of parked cars from this development. They argued that they were supplying god knows how many bike racks - always useful to do the week's shopping on eh? These were always going to be 2 & 3 bed flats - and to my mind that means family dwellings. Families have cars and vans fact, NOT bikes and we are now being proved right, which can currently be evidenced by the increased demand for parking in the surrounding roads. I can't see any evidence of anyone using the bike racks.

If you read my previous post properly I say that what is needed now at the front is a green space which will enhance the Sydenham Gateway - I do not mention putting more flats up. And dont get me started on the pathway between the flats and the pub. What a great muggers paradise that it is going to be. But still - never mind we can all go round and try and see the intended mural - if the concept actually works of course....

Annie.
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Annie. »

gillyjp wrote:No Annie we are not happy with the flats that are there since they block out a considerable amount of light from not only our gardens but also our kitchen and bedroom windows. However we fought this planning application long and hard and got the development one storey lower than was intended and far fewer flats. That was the best compromise we could achieve - given that no one from the Syd. Soc. supported us in our actions because they had their own agendas. We have however learned to live with this compromise and the reality of what is there now.
I have always pleaded for a bit of green space at the front - it doesnt have to be more flats. We also made the point at the relevant planning meeting about there being only 7 (2 of which are disabled) parking spaces for the whole of the development. But of course Lewisham knew best. They shut their ears to our protestations about the lack of parking spaces and how the surrounding roads would be full of parked cars from this development. They argued that they were supplying god knows how many bike racks - always useful to do the week's shopping on eh? These were always going to be 2 & 3 bed flats - and to my mind that means family dwellings. Families have cars and vans fact, NOT bikes and we are now being proved right, which can currently be evidenced by the increased demand for parking in the surrounding roads. I can't see any evidence of anyone using the bike racks.

If you read my previous post properly I say that what is needed now at the front is a green space which will enhance the Sydenham Gateway - I do not mention putting more flats up. And dont get me started on the pathway between the flats and the pub. What a great muggers paradise that it is going to be. But still - never mind we can all go round and try and see the intended mural - if the concept actually works of course....
With respect, I did read your post properly.
I agree with you that the whole flats thing should never have been allowed, but,we are at that place unfortunately,
However,I do not think the developers should get away with what in my mind is what they wanted all along.
I personally want the pub rebuilt,
just to show that people like developers cannot just ride into town do what the hell they want then leave us all with a disaster.
I also agree that the alleyway will become a muggers paradise.
I wish you had managed to fight off the flat building altogether,I have always been surprised that Lewisham allowed it,
perhaps they should be held accountable when things go pear shaped, which they will.

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Eagle
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Eagle »

Gilly
I appreciate your position as you have to live next to this monstrosity. I agree that the whole lot should not have been built.
Do you know how much they are going for ? I assume over 200k.
I am not sure many of the residents will need a car as next to station and bus routes and new Sainsbury will be part of the complex.
Sorry Annie but I agree with Gilly that the pub should now be demolished. It is an eyesore by these flats. Cannot believe anyone will be found to operate the Pub.
Trouble with pocket park you will attract the 24/7 drinkers ( though hopefully they will not be able to afford alcohol after HMG introduces minimum pricing.

gillyjp
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by gillyjp »

Eagle - All the flats are now let to social housing tenants - Hexagon. Whilst it was intended that some should be shared ownership (part buy part rent) this never materialised. It is a 100% social housing development. No problem with that at all.

Honestly there is nothing in that shell of a building - what is left of the old Greyhound - that bears any resemblance to the old pub. It looks positively unsafe to me with all those vertical cracks - and just that should be enough for it to be demolished. I would certainly be against building more flats in its place though. I would hold out for the pocket park regardless of the tendency to attract street drinkers. As long as it was policed regularly by community safety officers it could work quite well In the same way that The Queens Gardens in Croydon is kept relatively clear of problems like that. I would prefer an open space rather than an alleyway attracting not only potential muggers but inevitably those who use these vulnerable little walkways as public toilets. Believe me this happened all the time when the Greyhound was still open.

gerispringer
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by gerispringer »

I agree it looks hideous. I think an open space with a few trees and may be a small cafe with tables and chairs would be fine

Tim Lund
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Tim Lund »

I'm pretty well with gillyjp here, although I don't think it's helpful to say that SydSoc had an 'agenda', but having been its Chair for part of the period, I would say that. As I have written on this Forum more recently, I think now that SydSoc was out of its depth; I think the idea of a 'Sydenham Gateway' was good, but it is time to recognise that, for whatever reasons, it has gone pear-shaped, and it's now time to leave egos behind, and emerge from entrenched positions. Some of us will hate the fact that we have lost the Greyhound, and others will resent the fact that the developers will seem to have 'got away with it'. Others will be unhappy that in a prime Sydenham location, we have a 100% social housing development. Well, that's how it is, and it's not the end of the world. It is a shame to lose what might have been a great community pub, but communities are more resilient that some people think; take away a pub, and people can still find places to meet and socialise - especially if planning barriers are not put up to changing use of other premises to cafés.

Stepping back a bit further, the big picture here is the national failure over recent decades to build enough houses, which has pushed up housing costs all round, and made new housing the most viable option economically on any site available for redevelopment. I'm not too keen on this particular development, but it needn't have happened as it has if it had been easier to develop other sites, not just here, but throughout London, which is where people do want to live. On various threads both on this Forum and SE23.com I have argued that we should try to encourage more housing in our area, with the redevelopment of existing sites where opportunities present themselves.

It's a very complex area, which I suspect is bedevilled by targets for social housing; I think what matters is getting more housing / 'habitable rooms' - 'period' as Americans would say. I think it it cutting off the nose to spite the face to object to more private sector housing because not enough is offered for social housing - if it's made easier in general to add more habitable rooms, then more open market housing doesn't mean less social housing. But it does mean that house prices and rents will be driven down, so making open market housing affordable as well, which is what we should all want.

Annie.
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Annie. »

There is overcrowding in London hence the need for more housing social or private,loads of empty housing "up North" shame governments can't give an incentive to businesses to move where the cheap housing is and also high unemployment.

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Eagle
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Eagle »

True there is overcrowding in London and South East. That is because to many people have come here.
If you build 1 million new homes then even more people will come and back to square one.
Rather like a new road only makes conditions better for a short while before more traffic attracted and back to square one.

I did not realise all Greyhound development were for so called social housing but guess private people would be reluctant to live there.
I hope they are not being given to the serial unemployed but to working people.

G-Man
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by G-Man »

I don't think it's a particularly bad development. I'm glad it's not as high as initially thought, that's definitely a good thing. I think the side alley if lit well will be fine and not a 'muggers parsdise'. I also think that Sydenham needs another pub to add some vibrancy to the area. Also referring to those that want a pub as 'do gooders' who wouldn't use it anyway is a bit harsh. And you have to remember that the users of this forum are not really a clear sample of Sydenham.

If you were at any of the SEE3 stuff this weekend, you'll see there is a clear demographic living in the local area who probably go to Dulwich, Forest Hill or Crystal Palace for good food and a drink. Why can't we have somewhere more local, rather than having to go to neighbouring areas? I think people would use it, if it is done right. Also, If we had more choice in Sydenham more money would be spent on the high street, as people wouldn't feel the need to go to these other destinations and the area would become more vibrant.

That's what I think anyway.

G-Man

leenewham
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by leenewham »

Totally agree G-man.

Tim Lund
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Tim Lund »

I wonder if there is a deal to be struck whereby the developers pay an amount - and all the tiles they have preserved - to get out of having to redevelop the Greyhound where it is, and have this amount applied by the Council to the (re)development of a new or existing pub elsewhere in Sydenham. A pub on a larger site is more likely to be viable, and there is more likely to be space for the tiles.

Eagle
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Eagle »

I agree that Sydenham does want a decent Pub , but do not believe The Greyhound will ever be that.

To fund another decent Pub would be a better suggestion.

leenewham
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by leenewham »

Where would that be?

They Greyhound needs to be restored, it needs to look good as it's an important gateway into Sydenham. When it's finished it will look great. Mistakes have been made and developers,as ever, haven't acted in the best interests of their own PR.

What matters now is a fully restored, handsome Greyhound at an important site, that will be occupied by a decent, quality business that take build on the sort of people that have been crawling all over the pop ups this last weekend.

Lets be positive!

Nigel
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Re: Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Post by Nigel »

I agree that the Greyhound needs to be reinstated - that whole development has been a disappointment , the nadir of which was the wilful destruction of the pub.
I for one am sick of the limp-wristed approach LB Lewisham take on these things. This "oh well what can you do " talk is not right and sends out a message to other sheisters to half-deliver, knock down buildings and get away with a ticking off , if indeed LB Lewisham could even agree on the wording or a ticking off.
The pub will be smaller and I think more sustainable as a small business - if they get the right landlord it has every chance - who would have seen the Dolphin as having a future five years ago until the excellent Michael and Violetta rocked up ?
Lets expect more for Sydenham and, to paraphrase an American politician who knows the value of grotesque levels of campaign spending..... No they can't!
A very good evening
Nigel

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