Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

[scarpetta]

Is anybody aware of the current status? Really keen to see builders on the site ASAP

[leenewham]

Watch this space...

[leenewham]

The artwork has been sent to the tile company for the Greyhound mural so things are happening.

[Eagle]

Wunderbar.
When should it have been completed.
Why have J Sainsbury been driven away.
I am beginning to wonder whether it would not have been better to pull the whole thing down in the first place. I never remember it as a welcoming establishment.
I appreciate The Sydenham Society have the best of intentions , but can they really say the fight has been worthwhile.

[G-Man]

Have Sainsbury's been driven away? I didn't know that.

I thought you were in favour of a pub Eagle? An establishment can change it's clientele and the way it is perceived by community, look at the Dolphin or more recently the Catford Bridge Tavern. We desperately need another nice pub in Sydenham.

G-Man

[Eagle]

True we do need a new decent pub in Sydenham . No one would doubt that.

True I was for the retention of The Original Greyhound. However as the saga has dragged on and on and On I wonder about the wisdom of my original view.

You mention Catford Bridge Tavern which is a lovely pub with fine ales.

Guess we will have to wait and see.

Re J Sainsbury I am sure someone mentioned on this forum that they have withdrawn their interest , presumably because of the long delays and who can blame them

[Tim Lund]

Have Sainsbury's been driven away? I didn't know that.

I thought you were in favour of a pub Eagle? An establishment can change it's clientele and the way it is perceived by community, look at the Dolphin or more recently the Catford Bridge Tavern. We desperately need another nice pub in Sydenham.

G-Man

Hi G-Man

This is the posting you missed

As an fyi for everyone Sainsbury's are not planning to open a Local at The Greyhound anymore.

I can also say there are good reasons for thinking "caseyref" knows what he is talking about, but I am not in a position to publish what these reasons are.

My suspicion is that the developers, and others commercially involved, have never believed the Greyhound will be rebuilt. From Sainsbury's point of view, having it obscure their shop front must be quite a negative, so it's reasonable to think they have been waiting for ideas of rebuild it to be given up before committing to going in. It looks as if they have now given up.

Where we are now, I think, is that the developers - Purelake - have planning permission to rebuild, and have said - at the recent trial in Bromley- that they intend to. Even so, it's only permission, and we don't have a timescale, although Lee points out that the artwork has been sent for the mural at the back. I wonder if Purelake really meant it. In the court judgment it was said that they were 'not likely to benefit from the development financially', so it's quite easy to see why they should change their mind. Are there any lawyers who can say what delay or other face saving device might mean a change of mind wouldn't amount to contempt of court?

I have no argument about Sydenham needing another nice pub, but I don't see why it has to be on this site. In another recent post Lee has pointed out that there are two unused spaces - the old sorting office and the snooker hall at Cobbs Corner - with potential for redevelopment, and both near the station. With the example of the old post office in Forest Hill now being the Sylvan Posts, I cannot see why in Sydenham we still have such entrenched positions.



It should be a good thing that there is such commuity spirit here, but I fear to potential investors it just looks like incomprehensible commercial risk.

[leenewham]

Does anyone know for sure if sainsburys have pulled out if the greyhound and why?

It's interesting that the detailing on the shops facade where the signage goes us the same as lidl's store branding on many of thier bespoke stores.

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[Rachael]

My suspicion is that the developers, and others commercially involved, have never believed the Greyhound will be rebuilt. From Sainsbury's point of view, having it obscure their shop front must be quite a negative, so it's reasonable to think they have been waiting for ideas of rebuild it to be given up before committing to going in. It looks as if they have now given up.

This seems like an extraordinary statement to me. When did Sainsburys first show an interest in taking a unit? Was it when the Greyhound was all but demolished? Or before? Are you saying they took a commercial decision (to take a unit) based on the assumption that the developers would do something illegal?

[Steveofsyd]

Well I would rather they now knock it down. It just doesn't work for me any more and I for one would not want to set up shop in the shadow of the pub. Has anyone planned where their rubbish bins would go? How about the empties - barrels/kegs? Surely not behind as there is no "yard" is there?
Now that Sainsburys won't be moving in, maybe they can entice a Cafe Rouge and other eateries by demolishing the pub, and making a new town piazza with tables and chairs and the odd tree for the eateries. I've said before, this would look great as the Sydenham gateway.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Tim Lund]

Are you saying they took a commercial decision (to take a unit) based on the assumption that the developers would do something illegal?

I think what was illegal was to give unnatural help to the otherwise natural process of decay. I suspect Sainsburys thought that sooner or later all reasonable people would see it would make a better Sydenham Gateway with a clear view of a tenant of their ilk, and an attractively landscaped and managed plaza of some sort in front.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[leenewham]

Sorry Tim, that's utter rubbish. Sainsbury's, gateway to Sydenham?

We have some other nice piazzas, one between an estate agents and a bank, another between a bank and funder directors. Another in front of a post office.

These work well when there is a market on them, but otherwise don't really add much except large expanses of pavement.

Point is, unless they are used by the businesses, there is little point in them most of the time. To think that a piazza in front of a supermarket is a benefit to Sydenham that will change perception of the area for the good of all is, frankly, a little silly. Piazza in a high street serve the surrounding businesses. great if the surrounding businesses are cafe's. Not so good if the surrounding businesses are places that sell cheap alcohol or takeaway food.

Eventually the Greyhound will be rebuilt. Ideally Antic would have taken over the Greyhound and kept the car park and no dull flats that overpower the surrounding buildings would have been built (or at most only a few would have been) giving Sydenham a car park for markets and a bigger pub. But we can't change that. The pub will be rebuilt and it will be an asset to the area. Eventually.

[fishcox]

On my way to the station this morning, walking down Spring Hill, I noticed the first piece of grafitti has appeared at the back of the old building.

It only looks like a 'tag' with one of those big marker pens, but that is often how it starts.

[Rachael]

I have a proposal - Let's invite the people of Sydenham decide if they want the Greyhound rebuilt or not. If the decision is not, Purelake should donate what would have been the rebuilding costs to local initiatives such as the new youth centre, the Arts Fest, SEE3, the library etc. Or to the putative new cinema.

[Tim Lund]

I have a proposal - Let's invite the people of Sydenham decide if they want the Greyhound rebuilt or not. If the decision is not, Purelake should donate what would have been the rebuilding costs to local initiatives such as the new youth centre, the Arts Fest, SEE3, the library etc. Or to the putative new cinema.

I hear distinct echos here of this from earlier in this thread:

I wonder if there is a deal to be struck whereby the developers pay an amount - and all the tiles they have preserved - to get out of having to redevelop the Greyhound where it is, and have this amount applied by the Council to the (re)development of a new or existing pub elsewhere in Sydenham. A pub on a larger site is more likely to be viable, and there is more likely to be space for the tiles.

although Rachael is commendably thinking of community assets as not necessarily pubs. I suspect, however, that her proposal is more a thought experiment intended to elucidate how "the people of Sydenham" might be expected to decide anything. But why should there be any better way to decide this than referral to the Sydenham Assembly?

For the record, so with no irony here, I think Rachael's proposal could be helpful.

[Tim Lund]

Piazza in a high street serve the surrounding businesses. great if the surrounding businesses are cafe's. Not so good if the surrounding businesses are places that sell cheap alcohol or takeaway food.

It is curious that in this case Lee sees no opportunity to control what tenants could occupy the space surrounding this possible plaza, but in most other discussions about Sydenham Road he seems to like the idea of more regulation - e.g. the KFC thread.

[leenewham]

Because the space has been designed specifically for a supermarket Tim.

Because to the best of our knowledge a supermarket is going in there Tim (until we have proof to the contrary). This is the reality of the situation Tim.

What bearing this has on another thread about future idealistic ways forward for trying to limit the amount of businesses that all offer exactly the same thing is beyond me. AGAIN you are taking something out of context Tim to try to prove your point and it IS infuriating.

[Tim Lund]

Because the space has been designed specifically for a supermarket Tim.

If the space behind the Greyhound has indeed been designed specifically for a supermarket, how dopes that not create an opportunity for Waitrose?

http://www.waitrose.presscentre.com/con ... sAreaID=20

Waitrose, the food shops of the John Lewis Partnership, is currently undergoing the biggest period of expansion in our company's history as we continue to build on our reputation for quality produce and excellent service.

source here

Obviously there is a risk of a less 'aspirational' tenant, but why be negative? There are so many positives for this site, e.g. the proximity to the London Overground, the street improvements now going in, and that Sydenham, with so many parks in the area, is a good place to live, and good value compared to property elsewhere in London. I am fairly sure that a Waitrose, in that location and clearly visible would create a better impression than whatever else might go in there, obscured by the remnants of the Greyhound. What is stopping "the community" getting behind such a vision, other than a legacy of complicity in incompetent meddling on the part of our "community leaders", whose antics over the years have made Sydenham a dangerous place to invest?

[Hammaren]

no more pubs please. Cafes and decent restaurants are better. if a pub, then a gastro.

[JulietP]

Anyone else think Tim and Lee should be placed in some kind of sinbin where they can't interact or mention each other for a couple of days?

On the greyhound my view is let's do what we can to encourage them to get on with rebuilding it, search for a tenant and have a pub, for goodness sake. We can't undo the past. We need to make the most of what we have. It could still be a brilliant pub.