Bring back the Victorian style Shop Awning

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 1 Aug 2015 13:54

I was looking at some old pictures of Sydenham and noticed how lovely the high street looked with matching awnings all the way down. We have the advantage of a dead straight road with beautiful Victorian buildings above the shops.
All across London, the nicest shopping areas have brought them back...
Was this considered at all by our "high street" beautification people? It would be very cheap compared to some of the other ideas they have had....and if the council were prepared to invest, I'm sure it would make a huge difference....
One of us on here (forgive me for forgetting) is an expert in this area as he does signs and shop fronts (?)
Views?

mosy · Post by **mosy** » 1 Aug 2015 19:57

I think you're asking leenewham.

For my part, I asked about where all the pull-out awnings had gone a while back. Shortly after, I wondered if I should eat my words as quite a few shops do still have them, especially those with outside wares. Maybe the owners only pull them out when it's very sunny or likely to rain? They definitely still exist though since with the rainy weather we have had it's been dodgems to stay dry

whilst not getting dripped on from the run-off rainwater

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 1 Aug 2015 23:07

Lenewham, what do you think? What about costs...they could put their names on them (tastefully of course) .
Can you do one of your famous mock-ups for us if it's not too much trouble?

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 2 Aug 2015 09:58

Steveofsyd wrote:I was looking at some old pictures of Sydenham and noticed how lovely the high street looked with matching awnings all the way down. We have the advantage of a dead straight road with beautiful Victorian buildings above the shops.
All across London, the nicest shopping areas have brought them back...
Was this considered at all by our "high street" beautification people?

I've no idea, but I suspect they would not have been able to enforce this given the fragmentation of freeholders along Sydenham Road. OTOH, when Sydenham Road was developed (Edwardian rather than Victorian, but let's not quibble) there would have been just the one freeholder (on the north side), the Prudential, who would have been able to require conformity to such standards in the terms and conditions of the shop leases.

Nimbyism explained?

Bovine Juice · Post by **Bovine Juice** » 2 Aug 2015 11:39

Awnings are great if well maintained. They're awful pigeon poo encrusted messes if not

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 2 Aug 2015 12:37

Luckily we don't seem to have a pigeon,seagull or crow problem in Sydenham...probably afraid if getting served up in our various "chicken" shops...

Bovine Juice · Post by **Bovine Juice** » 2 Aug 2015 15:42

We get a lot of them in Penge as three individuals feed them.

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 2 Aug 2015 22:29

Steveofsyd wrote:Was this considered at all by our "high street" beautification people? It would be very cheap compared to some of the other ideas they have had....and if the council were prepared to invest, I'm sure it would make a huge difference....

A good question (although I'm not convinced it would be that cheap!).

Why not put your question direct to SEE3 (which I assume is what you mean by 'our "high street" beautification people')? Contact details are at http://www.see3.co.uk/

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 3 Aug 2015 00:09

Thanks Biscuitman....I will as I e noticed this being done in other areas of London....why are we always the poor relation....? It's quite depressing really that despite all our ideas and complaints we just do not seem to have a real vision backed by the council.....maybe they should have gone to Specssavers

leenewham · Post by **leenewham** » 3 Aug 2015 07:46

Traditional awnings are the only ones that are properly designed for British High Streets which can get quite windy. Traditional, or victorian style shop front awnings are the strongest.

High Streets looks great with lots of awnings. We have designed lots of shops with awnings all over London (West Norwood and Streatham have a few we have worked on) and helped or advised on a few in Sydenham (like Blue Mountains cleaned one, On The Hoof etc).

Unfortunately most awnings are now either covered up with bad signage or have ben removed (probably when the council funded 'shop front improvements' back in the 80's (So I have been told) when lots of original shops fronts were ripped out and replaced with aluminium ones, paid for by the tax payer. When this happens it takes a long time for an area to recover. Older shop fronts tend to get 'rediscovered' and loved by people who want to run independent businesses, seduced by the charter they bring to an area.

Ideally they should be integrated with the shop front, which means spending a lot of money chaining things. They can be directly mounted to the shop front, but it doesn't look as good. Originally they were mounted above the sign, but shops don't like this these days and it's difficult to do.

Traditional awnings for a 5, wide shop fronts are around £2300. Refurbing an original one is around £700. If the shop changes hands, then if the logo is on the awning, they have to change them unless the logo is on the valence only. Often shops don't bother. I've seen cafes with tatty awnings for Spar, years after spar left the shop. Combined with decent signage and lighting, they can make a real difference.

They definitely improve high streets, but need to be put away at night. The new shutter that Billings put up when the old one failed means that their awning downs' go away fully at night, which is why it's so dirty (they need to be cleaned every so often and have to be put away at night). They would greatly benefit from a new traditional awning (and cleaning their sign when they clean the windows).

But should the council fund this? We have been involved in lots of council funded schemes and I'm not sure it's the best way to spend council money at present and it doesn't work if the money is given to the shops (suppliers HAVE to be paid directly). However, I believe that schemes like this are better value and deliver a much better improvement to shop shops look than paving schemes which are extremely expensive and when paving get dirty, it ends up looking pretty similar to how it was before.

Many shops just want new roller shutters and aluminium shop fronts, even when the one they have is ok. Unless there is a problem with the sun, most shops don't bother as they are 'a cost' rather than an investment (please note, I said many, not all shops). These schemes are extremely time consuming to manage and implement and if planning is involved, can take years if there are lots of shops.

I believe changing planning laws to encourage behaviour, education and traders groups would have a longer term effect on how the British high street looks.

leenewham · Post by **leenewham** » 3 Aug 2015 11:19

The way we were:

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 3 Aug 2015 11:21

Thanks so much for a really informative reply....just what I was after....absolutely love the photos ...LOVE them!
It's no where as expensive as I thought, and totally agree about the investment vs the appeal of the shopfront (great value)
I also agree 100% with your comment re paving schemes vs a hugely cheaper option that would have a much bigger impact on the high street.
The problem with Lewisham is that they seem to have very limited ideas and no coherent strategy for Sydenham. It's basically spend the money on whatever is big and expensive (to use the budget) without much consideration for the true ROI. Is there a marketing department?

£100k well spent could have transformed a portion of our high street...that's probably what was spent on the Turdis incl installation (it doesn't work and it's an eyesore)

I would hazard a guess that if we had a beautiful high street with the Victorian blinds as mentioned ....out every sunny day, it would get some publicity...possibly TV and attract people to the area and as I keep saying we need people from outside to visit the area.
That would strat the ball rolling.

leenewham · Post by **leenewham** » 3 Aug 2015 11:41

The cost sis if you go direct to a awning supplier. When it goes out to tender it's all outsourced and I've seen the same awnings cost £3500 when this happens. We do these schemes differently, but it's takes a lot longer and it's awkward to manage.

As you can see above, our high street was beautiful once. Yet all the shops in the image above services the local population of all incomes. The biggest difference was that signage companies were highly skilled and shops placed a lot of importance on shop displays and how their businesses looked.

It's cost a lot of money to make Sydenham look the way it does today, it's expensive to change original features. I have some images of some signage and awnings we have done recently that I will post, along with costs, in a conservation area in part of outer London.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 3 Aug 2015 11:59

Great...
By the way Cherry and Ice still have their inbuilt one but last time I saw it was last Summer. Unfortunately it is was in awful condition (shredded) and needs a re-canvas. It would look lovely and shade us when we sit in the front....

FromCtoShiningC · Post by **FromCtoShiningC** » 10 Oct 2015 08:45

Great picture by the way (thanks for sharing).... a lovely era for aesthetics of shop fronts. A world away from the plastic cheap signs across much of Britain these days. All is not lost though... there are many shops which still look fantastic up and down Sydenham. I have always admired the book shop by the railway bridge... and Blue Mountain does look rather pleasant too (that whole parade of shops is surely the greatest architecture in the high street stretch)...
On a downside, It's a shame that the lovely chemist shop front opposite Silverdale was removed a few years ago (but don't get me started on that!)

mosy · Post by **mosy** » 10 Oct 2015 15:25

Yes, I too mourned the loss (still do) of the beautiful curved window that Kente (former chemists) chose to remove (if I understand correctly, so correct if wrong).

There was a similar one opposite and down a bit with dual curved windows forming the shop front. I know that one was vandalised and the owner/lessee(?) was equally as distraught as I - a massive blow as he'd only just taken over - and said the cost of replacement like-for-like was too prohibitive. I don't know what happened to the other one that it is no more.

Sorry to stray since not about awnings, but they aren't really seen at footfall level, besides being either there or not, i.e. wouldn't know from walking under one if it was dirty or pristine.

I agree wholeheartedly with one of leenewham's comments somewhere in this thread that it shows a "doesn't matter" approach if old (previous shop's) signage is displayed on frontages. In computer games I think it's called "Owned" (as in absolute) so hard to know why some shop owners don't really "own" their frontage signage to the fullest extent they can. Granted there might be goodness knows what hurdles to prevent "own[ing]" or altering whatever signage on a building is there so probably not as simple as buying a pot of paint. Some building signs ought to be preserved anyway as remnants of the past. Puts small shopkeepers (presumably tenants, rather than powerful supermarkets) between a rock and a hard place maybe so can't be too quick to ciritcise them if hands are tied.

leenewham · Post by **leenewham** » 11 Oct 2015 00:59

There are no hurdles, signage comes under permitted development. If it's to be lit, then it should have advertising consent and the letters should be under 75 cm tall. But in reality planning is too busy to enforce guidelines, most shops don't know of them or understand them. Many signage companies have very little design skill (but if anyone wants to know some really good ones, PM me) and most shops (not all, but the vast majority, unfortunately) don't care about how they look for one reason or another (some just don't realise). It's often considered it a cost, or not important and not an investment. Yet most shops in the high street, over time, have spent many thousands making their shops look worse then they did originally.

There are good examples. Pauline and Sugamountain in Forest Hill has done a fantastic job with limited expenditure, Sugahill looks great, as does Billings (when it's clean) and I like Agas Deli. None of these were particularly expensive, some were actually cheap and are some of the best looking businesses in the area.

I welcome the painted roller shutters, the guy who does them is very good.

Keeping original features is often cheaper. It's so much easier making a high street look nice when original shop fronts are still in place, awning boxes and original signboards are still there and high streets look much better. People tend to rejuvenate such places as they fall in love with them again.

Bring back the awnings too, these can look fantastic. On The Hoof's victorian awning was done by the company that used to be in the high street who we use a lot.

Planning needs to change (I wish our local cllrs would listen and do something on this but It's like banging your head against a red brick wall talking to them about high streets!) by making guidelines local, encouraging behaviour by use of publicised local bespoke permitted development and policing other types of development that should be discouraged.

Hopefully I"m trailing this with another borough soon. It's weird that it seems impossible to do this here in my own one where I live and work, but that shop has sailed and it's not a boat I will board any more, which is why I rarely post about high streets on here any more.

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