Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

The place for serious discussion, announcements and breaking news about Sydenham

Moderator: frenzarin

Pat Trembath
Posts: 613
Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54

Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Pat Trembath » 14 Aug 2015 11:06

A word of warning. The speed limit on Sydenham Hill is 20 mph and brand new live speed cameras have been installed.

Parker1970
Posts: 406
Joined: 4 Nov 2014 22:36
Location: Kirkdale

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Parker1970 » 14 Aug 2015 11:23

Perhaps they might catch the moped groups :)

Eagle
Posts: 10658
Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Eagle » 14 Aug 2015 11:50

About time action was taken. 20 quite fast enough for built up areas.

Better live than dead cameras.

_HB

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by _HB » 14 Aug 2015 12:05

Good

NawhalPA
Posts: 9
Joined: 28 Oct 2013 19:44
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by NawhalPA » 19 Aug 2015 13:22

Its certainly slowing the traffic down around it, not so much on the section past the Woodhouse towards FH. I see there is a campaign group called 20's plenty http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/ which is pushing for this to be the default speed in all urban areas. Probably a better idea than shifting between 20 and 30 depending on the number of houses about. Perhaps however not something the Treasury would favour, as they are the ones who pocket the speeding fines.

SaraHH
Posts: 3
Joined: 17 Aug 2015 10:11
Location: Sydenham

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by SaraHH » 19 Aug 2015 14:33

Finally! I've noticed they've changed the traffic light this morning opposite Sydenham Station.

Lois
Posts: 90
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 03:27
Location: Westwood Hill SE26 6PE

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Lois » 20 Aug 2015 01:43

I am not a fan at all!
Last edited by Lois on 20 Aug 2015 01:48, edited 1 time in total.

Lois
Posts: 90
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 03:27
Location: Westwood Hill SE26 6PE

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Lois » 20 Aug 2015 01:46

I am a driving instructor in the area and I have to say that I think the 20mph speed limit on roads such as Sydenham Hill are increasing the danger rather than decreasing it.

I have been overtaken many times with oncoming traffic having to take evasive action on several occasions, like today, when a car overtook my vehicle too late to cut in before a traffic island causing the car coming towards us on the other side of the road to both brake and pull in towards the kerb in order to prevent a collision.

My pupils lose their concentration on the road and start looking around instead of on the road ahead or turning to look at me as they talk to me or I talk to them and I have to admit I myself have been guilty of reaching behind me for my diary and setting my screen ready to call the next pupil when I arrive. 20mph on that road is ridiculous!

And what is even more ridiculous is that South Croxted Road was made 20mph AFTER Sydenham Hill was!!!
Now THAT road should have been 20mph over 20 years ago.

I know of four fatalities on South Croxted Road that may not have occurred had it been 20mph rather than 30mph but to my knowledge (apologies if anyone knows me to be wrong here) there has been only one on Sydenham Hill since I moved here back in 1986 and that involved a motorcyclist only with no other vehicles involved.

My fear is that there will now be more collisions on roads like Sydenham Hill due to drivers losing concentration because 20mph feels like you are hardly moving and due to those who can't resist risking dangerous overtaking manoeuvres because they feel so frustrated being stuck behind those of us who do observe the law. It only takes the former coming one way and the latter the other and you have a recipe for disaster!

Sydenham
Posts: 270
Joined: 2 Sep 2007 09:08
Location: Wells Park

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Sydenham » 20 Aug 2015 09:09

Lois

Thank you for this insight and observations as an instructor. Changing one's behaviour overnight is never easy (if at all possible). Give it time and as more and more of us drivers come to understand the benefits of a 20 mph limit in built-up areas (that includes Sydenham Hill) then we'll all benefit from the more relaxing feel.

Granted that the last to feel this benefit will be those who just want to push faster and faster and in the process cause danger for others. That though is not a reason for ignoring and avoiding the benefits from 20 mph.

And I agree - it will be easier when everywhere is 20 mph - then a simple message can be given and hopefully understood by all.

demeaux
Posts: 21
Joined: 7 Jul 2014 09:53
Location: Wells Park

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by demeaux » 20 Aug 2015 11:07

A quick question, if I'm doing 20 mph on my bike at what speed should you overtake me in your car?

Clue: you shouldn't be right?

Lois
Posts: 90
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 03:27
Location: Westwood Hill SE26 6PE

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Lois » 21 Aug 2015 14:33

I am sorry but I simply cannot agree with you that putting a 20mph limit on all roads in London is going to make roads safer and in fact I honestly believe that it will make our roads more dangerous.

You yourself say, Sydenham, that it is never easy to change one’s behaviour overnight “if at all possible”. I would go further and add that for many of the drivers on our roads it is simply never possible!
For how long have we had the 30mph speed limit?
And how many drivers still today ignore it?

From ROSPA:
“Who Speeds?

The DfT 2009 Speed Survey 5 showed that:
• On 30 mph roads, 46% of car drivers exceed 30 mph and 16% exceed 35 mph
• On 40 mph roads, one quarter (22%) of car drivers speed, and 8% go faster than 45 mph
• On 60 mph roads, 8% of drivers speed but only 1% go over 70 mph
• On 70 mph dual carriageways, almost half of car drivers (42%) exceed the speed limit, with 10% going over 80 mph
• On motorways, half (50%) of car drivers exceed the speed limit, with 14% going faster than 80 mph.

Recent research 6 suggests there are three types of drivers:
• Compliant drivers who usually observe speed limits (52% of drivers)
• Moderate speeders who occasionally exceed speed limits (33% of drivers)
• Excessive speeders who routinely exceed speed limits (14% of drivers)

However, even the moderate speeders exceed 30 mph limits fairly regularly. Excessive speeders normally ignore the 30 mph limit, and often by a wide margin.”

So if even the moderate speeders exceed 30mph fairly regularly we have 47% of drivers who STILL do not observe the 30mph speed limit which has been in force for over 80 years!
But what about the new 20mph limit?
If 8% were speeding in 60mph zones, 22% in 40mph zones and 46% in 30mph zones it is reasonable to see the figure even higher in 20mph areas.

Lois
Posts: 90
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 03:27
Location: Westwood Hill SE26 6PE

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Lois » 21 Aug 2015 14:36

Another concern of mine is regarding the new drivers from London who opt to venture outside London at some point. I am sure that it is reasonable to expect that they will in fact be doing that?
The test centre I use at the moment operate mainly on 30mph roads and have a couple of roads that are 40mph.

Examiners are supposed to test drivers at higher speeds of 60 and 70mph but in the case of the London test centres this is simply not possible.

Will I still be able to train them on faster roads prior to the test that you would see carried out entirely at 20mph?

It takes 3 mins to drive from one end of Sydenham Hill to the other at 20mph, so despite the fact that I live on the outskirts of London, I would need my pupils to take lessons longer than the 2 hour lessons I currently book them in for in order to take them onto one of the local A roads such as the A21.

I know that once they realise that in order to pass their test they will only be required to drive at 20mph, the majority of them will refuse to pay me for a 3 hour lesson to experience the faster roads with a trainer sat next to them.

Once they pass their test they have a licence for life and can venture out the same day onto a Motorway if they do not have the sense to take further training beforehand. So what of the safety aspect of all those drivers who pass their test in London at 20mph?

Another issue is the increase in pollution at a time when we are supposed to be cutting back on it. In my new car the engine is running at far higher revs when I’m driving at 20mph in 3rd gear than when I’m driving at 30mph in 5th gear.

And the costs to all of us.
Longer travelling times for everything such as a trip to the supermarket.
Higher costs on what we buy in the supermarkets due to the increases in delivery time of their products to the shops.
The extra repair costs that diesel car owners will experience who drive mainly in London and are forced to be driving their vehicles at 20mph all the time.
So glad I opted for petrol again!

Lois
Posts: 90
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 03:27
Location: Westwood Hill SE26 6PE

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Lois » 21 Aug 2015 14:41

As I have already stated in my previous post, I have nothing against a 20mph limit where it is necessary such as on South Croxted Road where we are driving far too close to the parked vehicles lining the road on both sides to be driving at 30mph.
If Southwark council had made that 20mph many years ago lives would undoubtedly have been saved but unfortunately they didn’t.
Following one death they installed a camera which made no difference whatsoever.
Following another they installed a zebra crossing.
They did nothing after the first two deaths that I am aware of.
And now they state that they are making roads safer!!!
After making Sydenham Hill a 20mph zone BEFORE South Croxted Road.
Whatever their motive is it is most definitely NOT road safety.

Having driven all my life in London without the 20mph zones I have only ever been involved in two minor accidents, both of which were due to the other driver not looking where they were going.

I am quite rare as an instructor who insists on this and refuses to take my pupils to test until they are doing just that all the time.

Let me explain an incident for further elucidation.
This incident happened years ago when the junction of Crystal Palace Park Road and Westwood Hill was a give way rather than being protected by traffic lights.

My pupil stopped at the give way line. I noticed in my mirror that two cars had stopped behind us. I then needed to place my head almost on my lap in order to see down Westwood Hill due to the angle of the road.

My pupil had missed an opportunity. There was a car coming up the hill but it was a long way off and we easily had time to go. I said ‘Lyn’ and before I had time to continue with ‘do you not think we have the time to go here?’
BANG – and we were forced out into the path of the oncoming vehicle which still had more than enough time to come to a gentle stop.

My pupil had not gone because she hadn’t felt comfortable enough to turn her head to look in the direction that she would be travelling and move off.

The woman behind decided it was a gap, assumed we had gone and still looking down Westwood Hill rammed her husbands brand new car into the rear of mine.

I suffered a whiplash injury that lasted almost 11 months.

What is the point of this story?

There are two things that could be done that really would improve road safety and improved training and test standards is one of them.

I have so often watched other instructors pupils driving left out of the test centre whilst looking completely to the right and not having a clue about what was in front of their car and then noticed that they passed their driving test.

Instructors are taught to teach this life saving technique but rarely do. Perhaps if the candidates failed their test for not looking where they were going the instructors would then take this on board!
Last edited by Lois on 21 Aug 2015 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

Lois
Posts: 90
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 03:27
Location: Westwood Hill SE26 6PE

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Lois » 21 Aug 2015 14:45

And the other measure is SO simple.

I simply don’t understand this ‘entrapment’ idea that forces all of the speed cameras to be bright yellow so we can see them clearly on approach.

The only speed cameras that work well are the average speed cameras on the faster roads.

Drivers are still doing 45mph on Sydenham Hill where they can but due to those sticking to the 20mph limit this is now far MORE dangerous than it was before. Especially when you consider that soon the pedestrians will feel more comfortable just walking out to cross the road, not knowing that a maniac is about to come speeding past the cars it was deemed safe enough to cross before they got there.

If we had hidden cameras that were mobile so that we never knew where they were and maybe tougher consequences for the driver who exceeds the speed limit the issue would be sorted.

In no time drivers would stick to the speed limits just as they do in an average speed camera stretch of road.

If all the drivers stuck to 30mph on Sydehnam Road I believe it would be safer than the current situation of some observing the 20mph speed limit and others who do not and never will.

I have seen that camera go off many times but it won’t help.
All they will do is slow when they reach it.

If we had hidden mobile cameras there would be no need for humps and other traffic calming measures and the vast majority drivers would adhere to the speed limits.

A blanket 20mph speed limit really is not the answer.


Apologies for the onslaught of posts but as I think you can tell I do feel very strongly about this and I have my reasons to back that up. I only pray that I am wrong and that we don't see an increase of accidents on Sydenham Hill and surrounding roads. But if the current practices of drivers on these roads continue I fear that we will.

JRobinson
Posts: 1102
Joined: 5 Jan 2010 12:40
Location: De Frene Rd

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by JRobinson » 21 Aug 2015 15:14

Lois wrote:...
Another issue is the increase in pollution at a time when we are supposed to be cutting back on it. In my new car the engine is running at far higher revs when I’m driving at 20mph in 3rd gear than when I’m driving at 30mph in 5th gear.
Can I assume it's the new car, or that you're a driving instructor - surely you must have a better knowledge of cars than me but I would have assumed (or at least I was taught this when I learnt to drive) - that at 20mph you should probably be in 2nd gear, not 3rd - in which case your revs would be higher than doing 20mph in 3rd gear. How you them manage to be in 5th gear by the time your doing 30 is beyond me - 5th gear is, imo, there for when travelling at the highest speeds, motorways and dual carriageways only. surely it's just as bad for the engine to be running at too high revs than too low revs. Maybe your new car is designed to run better in higher gears at lower speads I don't know.
Lois wrote:...
Higher costs on what we buy in the supermarkets due to the increases in delivery time of their products to the shops.
The extra repair costs that diesel car owners will experience who drive mainly in London and are forced to be driving their vehicles at 20mph all the time.
will supermarkets really put up prices because a lorry delivery takes a few minutes longer to get somewhere?! I don't think so - most lorries don't get up to 30 anyway do they? driving through London?
you're saying that diesel car owners drive mostly in London?! fairly sure that's not true.

Tim Lund
Posts: 6688
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Tim Lund » 21 Aug 2015 15:14

From RoSPA
Effectiveness of 20mph speed limits and zones

A large number of evaluation studies have demonstrated a link between the introduction of 20mph zones and a subsequent reduction in casualties. The size of the reductions and the consistency of results over a wide number of areas are further evidence for this link.

There is similarly strong evidence showing the benefits of traffic calming measures, which are used in 20mph zones.

20mph limits without traffic calming also reduces traffic speed, although this effect is smaller than when they are introduced with traffic calming or other measures. Their lower cost means that wider areas can be covered.

As well as road safety benefits, it is important to highlight the contribution that 20mph zones can have in encouraging more physical activity, such as walking and cycling, by contributing towards a safer environment. The money spent on the schemes can also greatly improve the character of a residential area and quality of life of the residents.

RoSPA's Policy Position on 20mph Speed Limits

20mph zones are very effective at preventing injuries and RoSPA would like to see their wider use in residential areas.
20mph Zones and Limits

On the matter of hidden mobile vs. fixed cameras, I would have agreed with you, but RoSPA's evidence does not support this
The Handbook of Road Safety Measures includes a meta-analysis 14, of research studies which compared camera sites with similar sites that did not have cameras. This produced a best estimate of the effect of fixed visible cameras, which was a reduction in 24% of all accidents and a 39% reduction in fatal accidents. When the authors attempted to control for the potential of bias due to only the more positive results being published, the reduction in all accidents dropped to 16%.

In locations where fixed speed camera enforcement was more than doubled, there was a 35% reduction in accidents and in locations where fixed speed camera enforcement was increased, but not as much as being doubled, there was only a 17% reduction in accidents.

A meta-analysis of mobile, hidden speed cameras found a best estimate of their effectiveness was a reduction in 10% of all accidents and 16% of fatal accidents.
Speed Cameras

Eagle
Posts: 10658
Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Eagle » 21 Aug 2015 15:19

I do agree that the best deterrent is a series of cameras which monitor the speed along the whole stretch.

20 mph should be quite enough for Sydenham

Problem is also lack of Police. The number of people I see on a Mobile whilst driving is frightening. Even texting , unbelievable. These people deserve to be hung , drawn and quartered.

Tim Lund
Posts: 6688
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Tim Lund » 21 Aug 2015 15:38

Eagle wrote: The number of people I see on a Mobile whilst driving is frightening. Even texting , unbelievable. These people deserve to be hung , drawn and quartered.
You going soft?

Eagle
Posts: 10658
Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Eagle » 21 Aug 2015 15:44

My be a trifle over the top but driving whilst texting is surely attempted murder. You cannot pay 100% attention to the road whilst texting.....

Sydenham
Posts: 270
Joined: 2 Sep 2007 09:08
Location: Wells Park

Re: Speed cameras on Sydenham Hill

Post by Sydenham » 21 Aug 2015 16:16

Just because a law is not enforced, or unenforceable, doesn't make it irrelevant. Laws act to inform members of our society what is considered acceptable standards of behaviour - there's a general assumption that we all feel some sort of obligation to comply - even if we don't personally agree with each rule. It's that personal obligation that keeps us away from anarchy - though jumping from 20mph regulations to worrying about anarchy is quite a leap.

@Lois - I'll have to find more time than I have at the moment to read and consider all your posts. Thanks for giving me an insight into the world of the driving instructor.

Post Reply