Exhibition on Rebuilding Crystal Palace NOW ON
I totally agree Alice. I'm 17 and have been unsuccessfully looking for a job for more then a year. As well as that there is nothing for people my age to do around here. Whenever I go out I go to Croydon, Peckham of the West End. I think Sydenham is desperately in Need of a landmark and a reason for others to visit. We cannot miss this golden opportunity by assuming that the building will be a poor replica. Just imagine living next to Kew gardens and not having to pay to enter. As part of a my media course at my College I made a short 10 minute documentary about this subject that included interviews with the LDA, Ray Hall and users Crystal Palace Park. We found most of the people who used the park to be visitors who did not live in Sydneham and that they thought that the plan had potential. Ray Hall told me that in his opinion there was a 50/50 chance of the Palace been rebuilt and said that he did want to work with the LDA. The LDA said that they had not seen any plans from Ray Hall and dismissed the claim that they would be building a car park on the site saying that this would only happen if there was an event on that required extra parking spaces and just for that day. If the LDA plan their "tree palace" then we would have lost this opportunity forever so before you snub the idea of a new Crystal Palace in Crystal Palace Park please view the plans of Ray Hall. If we miss this chance to put Sydenahm back on the map we will condemn this area to a future of stagnation and mediocrity.
Hey Nicholas,
I'll tell you the secret to getting a job: condense your CV down to just one page with bullet points then carry out some cold calling and specs letters. Remember: if you get employed through an agency then half your salary might have to go to them. However, in this case, the employer is able to sack you anytime if you do not perform. Therefore, your best bet is to take all avenues. Try totaljobs.com and check out the Guardian newspaper. You will get a job eventually; you are still young. Good luck, my friend!I totally agree Alice. I'm 17 and have been unsuccessfully looking for a job for more then a year.
Well said Nicholas. It is refreshing to hear opinions from the younger generation in a debate that has sadly failed to engage with them. Young people such as you are important stakeholders in Crystal Palace Park and it seems that your voice has not been heard enough in the consultation process. After all in the near future your generation will have full responsibility for the park.
I was not impressed by the responses to your post. There was more than a whiff of condescension in the air methinks. All views are valid in this debate and eloquent expressions of opinion such as Nicholas's should be welcomed, especially when they result from balanced research into the subject.
Let's hear more from a young person's perspective.
I was not impressed by the responses to your post. There was more than a whiff of condescension in the air methinks. All views are valid in this debate and eloquent expressions of opinion such as Nicholas's should be welcomed, especially when they result from balanced research into the subject.
Let's hear more from a young person's perspective.
leenanewham
'The proposal is to build a SMALLER version o the palace in the place where the palace first stood, using the same methods, detailing and construction techniques as the original building that inspired most glass structures around the world and was widely copied around the world. ..
...This is a faithful reproduction, not a pastiche'
It is not possible to build using the same detailing as the original and pass building control. To start with glass buildings are incredibly unsustainable in terms of energy use even with the best double or triple glazing. You would need far thicker window mullions than the thin iron mullions between two thin sheets of glass they originally used. The glass would have to be more reflective and you would probably need additional solar shading to prevent overheating. I don't believe that all these elements have been factored into the budget and either the cost will balloon or there will be radical cost-cutting and one would end up with a very cheap and nasty job. Even with an unlimited budget and the best will in the world the building will inevitably look like a pastiche because times have moved on.
Even the all-singing -and-dancing functional content is completely unconvincing. Even the Trocadero building in Picadilly has repeatedly failed to find a financially viable content for privately-run exhibition space and currently hosts a sex-themed exhibition which is probably the only thing that pulls in the punters. 'Jules Verne's Lost World' out in Zone 3? It'll go belly up in no time and public money will have to go in to stop the place getting boarded up.
There are plenty of genuine brownfield sites in London that could benefit from development that AREN'T public park land which these benevolent people could endow with their visions. Somehow I think that what these poeple are really interested in is cheap land.
'The proposal is to build a SMALLER version o the palace in the place where the palace first stood, using the same methods, detailing and construction techniques as the original building that inspired most glass structures around the world and was widely copied around the world. ..
...This is a faithful reproduction, not a pastiche'
It is not possible to build using the same detailing as the original and pass building control. To start with glass buildings are incredibly unsustainable in terms of energy use even with the best double or triple glazing. You would need far thicker window mullions than the thin iron mullions between two thin sheets of glass they originally used. The glass would have to be more reflective and you would probably need additional solar shading to prevent overheating. I don't believe that all these elements have been factored into the budget and either the cost will balloon or there will be radical cost-cutting and one would end up with a very cheap and nasty job. Even with an unlimited budget and the best will in the world the building will inevitably look like a pastiche because times have moved on.
Even the all-singing -and-dancing functional content is completely unconvincing. Even the Trocadero building in Picadilly has repeatedly failed to find a financially viable content for privately-run exhibition space and currently hosts a sex-themed exhibition which is probably the only thing that pulls in the punters. 'Jules Verne's Lost World' out in Zone 3? It'll go belly up in no time and public money will have to go in to stop the place getting boarded up.
There are plenty of genuine brownfield sites in London that could benefit from development that AREN'T public park land which these benevolent people could endow with their visions. Somehow I think that what these poeple are really interested in is cheap land.
Hi Adrian,
If you are the Adrian I think you are you know far more than I do about the detailing of the building. I give my support to it only if it is a proper reproduction of the original, and from what I have read and seen from the exhibition that seems to be the case.
As for the sustainability of the project, I don't think the Trocedero is a good comparison (and it's full of worthless tat, I hate it BUT it is busy).
There are plenty of places that do work. The most direct comparison (which I am surprised no-one has mentioned) is Ally pally in North London. I used to live in North London (for my sins) and often visited this park. I found is fascinating.
http://www.alexandrapalace.com/
Luckily it was rebuilt after being partially destroyed by fire on more than one occasion.
This is a far more difficult place to get to than the Crystal Palace and yet it's always busy and has many events going on there...for everyone.
Yet no-one is saying 'pull it down and plant trees in its place'. People like it. No-one complains about the traffic there when events are on (Friends lived right next door to the park and they said it wasn't a problem).
No-one wants to pull it down to plant trees. It's had a great effect on the local economy and the surrounding park looks great. It's had a fantastic effect on neighbouring districts like Muswell Hill and Crouch end, both of which have poor transport.
I think it's a bit unfair to say that they are after just cheap land. If everyone thinks this will be such a financial disaster, then what have they to gain by building it? Why build something so expensive? Why run it as a charity/trust and use profits to fund the park? I think these are questions we should ask the architect directly rather than speculate so they have the chance to answer such charges. I think that's only fair.
If you are the Adrian I think you are you know far more than I do about the detailing of the building. I give my support to it only if it is a proper reproduction of the original, and from what I have read and seen from the exhibition that seems to be the case.
As for the sustainability of the project, I don't think the Trocedero is a good comparison (and it's full of worthless tat, I hate it BUT it is busy).
There are plenty of places that do work. The most direct comparison (which I am surprised no-one has mentioned) is Ally pally in North London. I used to live in North London (for my sins) and often visited this park. I found is fascinating.
http://www.alexandrapalace.com/
Luckily it was rebuilt after being partially destroyed by fire on more than one occasion.
This is a far more difficult place to get to than the Crystal Palace and yet it's always busy and has many events going on there...for everyone.
Yet no-one is saying 'pull it down and plant trees in its place'. People like it. No-one complains about the traffic there when events are on (Friends lived right next door to the park and they said it wasn't a problem).
No-one wants to pull it down to plant trees. It's had a great effect on the local economy and the surrounding park looks great. It's had a fantastic effect on neighbouring districts like Muswell Hill and Crouch end, both of which have poor transport.
I think it's a bit unfair to say that they are after just cheap land. If everyone thinks this will be such a financial disaster, then what have they to gain by building it? Why build something so expensive? Why run it as a charity/trust and use profits to fund the park? I think these are questions we should ask the architect directly rather than speculate so they have the chance to answer such charges. I think that's only fair.
I meant sustainability in environmental terms i.e. energy use. Unless an unheated building is proposed then a glass building like this is a complete anachronism and they only get the go ahead in the City due to the very expensive (and thick) glazing systems required.
Look at any Victorian glass design and their elegance comes from thin metal mullions with no insulation value with two sheets of glass and mastic. This is far worse environmentally than even the average Victorian sash due to the conductivity of metal.
Even if you get a glass building which will look nothing like the original, you have vast overheating problems which also consumes power to deal with. The conclusion is that this exercise in nostalgia is depressing because it is misguided. If you were going to build a sustainable building of this size and purpose today you would adapt and alter the geometry and design to take these issues into account but somehow the heritage aspect is the trump card that negates all these issues.
I don't really take these proposals seriously and very much hope that they don't impede the current proposals but I do resent this nostalgia trip so close to home because they are hoodwinking people into thinking they are going to get something that they're not. It reeks of the bad old days of 80/90s neoclassical shopping malls.
Btw on't know if I am the person who you think I am so don't know if I deserve the compliment.
Look at any Victorian glass design and their elegance comes from thin metal mullions with no insulation value with two sheets of glass and mastic. This is far worse environmentally than even the average Victorian sash due to the conductivity of metal.
Even if you get a glass building which will look nothing like the original, you have vast overheating problems which also consumes power to deal with. The conclusion is that this exercise in nostalgia is depressing because it is misguided. If you were going to build a sustainable building of this size and purpose today you would adapt and alter the geometry and design to take these issues into account but somehow the heritage aspect is the trump card that negates all these issues.
I don't really take these proposals seriously and very much hope that they don't impede the current proposals but I do resent this nostalgia trip so close to home because they are hoodwinking people into thinking they are going to get something that they're not. It reeks of the bad old days of 80/90s neoclassical shopping malls.
Btw on't know if I am the person who you think I am so don't know if I deserve the compliment.
Dear Lee
I grew up opposite Ally Pally and the only time it ever provided any entertainment for me and my family was when it went on fire in the eighties and we watched the flames lighting up the windows!!!
We often visited the park surrounding the 'palace' but never once did we go into the palace itself, since it was closed for absolutely years and years while they supposedly did it up and then when they did finally open the big hall bit -for craft fairs etc you had to pay to go in to those as they were private commercial events. Lord knows what they use the rest of the building for.
Demolishing buildings also costs a lot of money so they're not just going to knock it down, so the fact its still standing doesn't make it a success.
I think Steve Grindlay or someone has already pointed out that it is a commercial failure and I can testifiy to the fact that it did no benefit to the local residents either and made absolutely no difference to the transport there whatsoever. The W3 bus has always run past there and I don't remember them laying on extra services after the palace finally opened.
The building always seemed to totally dominate and 'chop' the park in half in an awkward way and the whole place has an air of desolation even now.
I grew up opposite Ally Pally and the only time it ever provided any entertainment for me and my family was when it went on fire in the eighties and we watched the flames lighting up the windows!!!
We often visited the park surrounding the 'palace' but never once did we go into the palace itself, since it was closed for absolutely years and years while they supposedly did it up and then when they did finally open the big hall bit -for craft fairs etc you had to pay to go in to those as they were private commercial events. Lord knows what they use the rest of the building for.
Demolishing buildings also costs a lot of money so they're not just going to knock it down, so the fact its still standing doesn't make it a success.
I think Steve Grindlay or someone has already pointed out that it is a commercial failure and I can testifiy to the fact that it did no benefit to the local residents either and made absolutely no difference to the transport there whatsoever. The W3 bus has always run past there and I don't remember them laying on extra services after the palace finally opened.
The building always seemed to totally dominate and 'chop' the park in half in an awkward way and the whole place has an air of desolation even now.
Ah, the W3, I remember it well.
yes you are right, it did have a feeling of decay for a while. It burnt down!
However later, when I lived there (white hart lane when I first came to London) I loved going there. I think it's a great building and I love the history. When it rained it was a great place to go to and in a poor area like Tottenham/Wood green (which lets face it, Tottenham hasn't much going for it) it was a real haven. As as shown in recent years it has been successful, although as you point out, many years ago it wasn't.
Events are held there (only in a small part though, a lot of it is free), and like many events in London you do have to pay. I don't have a problem with that. It's capitalism. I go if I like what goes on there. It would have been a disaster if it had been knocked down in my humble opinion.
I'm surprised we don't know one another, seems like we have been following each other round London for the last 20 years!
So I guess I like buildings you don't seem to. I wanted to be an architect before I became a designer. Guess we will have to agree that we will never agree on this!
Hopefully we will on other issues.
yes you are right, it did have a feeling of decay for a while. It burnt down!
However later, when I lived there (white hart lane when I first came to London) I loved going there. I think it's a great building and I love the history. When it rained it was a great place to go to and in a poor area like Tottenham/Wood green (which lets face it, Tottenham hasn't much going for it) it was a real haven. As as shown in recent years it has been successful, although as you point out, many years ago it wasn't.
Events are held there (only in a small part though, a lot of it is free), and like many events in London you do have to pay. I don't have a problem with that. It's capitalism. I go if I like what goes on there. It would have been a disaster if it had been knocked down in my humble opinion.
I'm surprised we don't know one another, seems like we have been following each other round London for the last 20 years!
So I guess I like buildings you don't seem to. I wanted to be an architect before I became a designer. Guess we will have to agree that we will never agree on this!
Hopefully we will on other issues.I don't know a lot about Ally Pally but I know that the Trust that runs it is made up mainly if not completely of councillors who have little or no business sense. I think that Ray Hall has got it right here in Crystal Palace as the Charitable Trust will include along with the landowner, local community reps and succesful business people who have no vested interest in the building. This approach should ensure that the trust does not impede the building's ability to be sustainable and pay for the park.
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Muddy Waters
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 17:05
Well. come on, bring it on, Ray Hall - let's stop all this campaigning locally for and against - put your scheme to Bromley, as the Local Planning Authority, now.
Let's see how it stacks up against planning policies. Proof of the pudding. etc, etc... And, tell us your timescale...........?
This is the Sydenham Town site which seems to have been taken over by Upper Norwood and Crystal Palace. l wonder why ? Am I the only Sydenham resident getting more than a bit bored by this constant harranguing from them up the hill?
I have said previously that I was hesitant in responding to this subject but until this becomes a proper application with all the necessary impact assessments it is only, as far as I can see, a local wish list.
I will continue to repeat my first two paragraphs until I see something positive from Ray Hall on this matter
Let's see how it stacks up against planning policies. Proof of the pudding. etc, etc... And, tell us your timescale...........?
This is the Sydenham Town site which seems to have been taken over by Upper Norwood and Crystal Palace. l wonder why ? Am I the only Sydenham resident getting more than a bit bored by this constant harranguing from them up the hill?
I have said previously that I was hesitant in responding to this subject but until this becomes a proper application with all the necessary impact assessments it is only, as far as I can see, a local wish list.
I will continue to repeat my first two paragraphs until I see something positive from Ray Hall on this matter
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John Greatrex
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 5 Mar 2008 21:41
- Location: SE19
A Poem Wot I Did Wrote PAXTON’S CRYSTAL PALACE CORNER
PAXTON’S CRYSTAL PALACE CORNER
With Albert’s help did Mr. Pax
(Around some trees they couldn’t axe)
His worldly pleasure dome design:
The greatest greenhouse ever seen;
A glass cathedral on the green
Beside the crystal Serpentine
In Hyde Park 1851.
But not for long. Unbolted. Gone.
By horse and cart away it went.
Just up from Penge he set it down.
To north it looked to London Town,
And south to Surrey, Kent.
Where Lewisham and Lambeth walk
With Croydon and Southwark
Greets with Bromley on Parade,
Upon a green hill not so far
From Sydenham, Sir Joseph
Paxton’s palace was remade.
For over eighty years it stood
His masterpiece of glass and wood
And iron. Until it died in flame
In 1936, November.
(Those who saw can still remember
How it blazed, came crashing down.)
Paxton’s spirit now is seen
In Crystal Palace Park
In its landscape, lakes, foundations;
In its branches, roots and bark;
And in this quiet corner too
Sir Joe has left his mark.
John Greatrex
With Albert’s help did Mr. Pax
(Around some trees they couldn’t axe)
His worldly pleasure dome design:
The greatest greenhouse ever seen;
A glass cathedral on the green
Beside the crystal Serpentine
In Hyde Park 1851.
But not for long. Unbolted. Gone.
By horse and cart away it went.
Just up from Penge he set it down.
To north it looked to London Town,
And south to Surrey, Kent.
Where Lewisham and Lambeth walk
With Croydon and Southwark
Greets with Bromley on Parade,
Upon a green hill not so far
From Sydenham, Sir Joseph
Paxton’s palace was remade.
For over eighty years it stood
His masterpiece of glass and wood
And iron. Until it died in flame
In 1936, November.
(Those who saw can still remember
How it blazed, came crashing down.)
Paxton’s spirit now is seen
In Crystal Palace Park
In its landscape, lakes, foundations;
In its branches, roots and bark;
And in this quiet corner too
Sir Joe has left his mark.
John Greatrex
I am from Upper Norwood. I have been reading posts on this site for some time and am only posting now becaue this issue is very relevant to me. Perhaps this is the case for others. I think I am allowed to post because when I registered I was asked where I lived and then accepted me. I put that I lived in SE19. We have a local forum and people from Sydenham are very welcome to post there.Muddy Waters wrote:
This is the Sydenham Town site which seems to have been taken over by Upper Norwood and Crystal Palace. l wonder why ? Am I the only Sydenham resident getting more than a bit bored by this constant harranguing from them up the hill?
I have not however noticed anyone from Upper Norwood Harranguing you. On the contrary I have been enjoying what I thought was a good natured debate. I am pleased that you can't wait for the planning application to go in. Me To. With the leader of Bromley Council showing his enthusiastic support, I imagine that he will have told Mr. Hall the best time to put his application in. Unfortunately I don't think he will submit a planning application for a £265 mill scheme just to stem our impatience!!
The new Crystal Palace will not be just for the people of Upper Norwood. The aim is that It will benefit people in all surrounding areas including our good neighbours in Sydenham.
One of the things I like about the area (I live about 10-15 minutes walk from the park entrance) is the peace, quiet and greenery and I often walk round the park - I would enjoy it a lot more if it were refurbished but I would not want to walk around the edge of a hotel and entertainment complex, nor would I want to walk past the many cars driven by those trying to enter and exit the site.
Putting my own preferences to one side, just how feasible are the plans? £265m is a lot of money and would require the attractions on the site to generate plenty of money to keep investors happy. So it would be good to see some more information about the plans - it doesn't need to be the full planning application but some plans, costings and market research would be welcome.
If you want to revive the name of Crystal Palace that money would be better invested in the football club!
Putting my own preferences to one side, just how feasible are the plans? £265m is a lot of money and would require the attractions on the site to generate plenty of money to keep investors happy. So it would be good to see some more information about the plans - it doesn't need to be the full planning application but some plans, costings and market research would be welcome.
If you want to revive the name of Crystal Palace that money would be better invested in the football club!
Alice - I have to say thank you for putting the argument FOR rebuilding the Crystal Palace so well and I agree with all your comments. I also live in Crystal Palace, but of course the park is used by residents of Penge, Sydenham and the surrounding areas.
If anyone is still undecided, please go to the following web site, which will answer a lot of questions and hopefully dispel those doubts! http://www.newcrystalpalace.org/
If anyone is still undecided, please go to the following web site, which will answer a lot of questions and hopefully dispel those doubts! http://www.newcrystalpalace.org/
As you all know I am in total favour of the idea but if most of you are against the plans then how about a reasonable compromise like this small replica of the Crystal Palace build in a Garden in India. Perfect for a farmers market.
http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/South%20 ... rden03.jpg
http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/South%20 ... rden03.jpg
