20 mph speed limits

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mot
Posts: 17
Joined: 19 Feb 2016 17:37
Location: Sydenham

20 mph speed limits

Post by mot » 3 Jul 2017 08:53

Hi All

20 mph speed limits seem pretty widespread across Lewisham and elsewhere across SE London.
I don't have any particular problem with them but I have a nagging suspicion that since the
limits seem to be principally announced by painted signs on the road surface they have somehow
"less official" than the regular 30mph and upwards limits.

I was just wondering if anyone out there has any anecdotal of any speed tickets being given for
travelling between 20 and 30mph in a 20 limit zone?

Compliance from drivers seems pretty haphazard on the whole.

Cheers!

monkeyarms
Posts: 256
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 14:54
Location: Tredown

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by monkeyarms » 3 Jul 2017 09:42

I always try to stick to 20 going down the hill from Crystal Palace, but I've frequently been somewhere between 20 and 30mph as I've gone past the cameras. And I've yet to receive a ticket.

So either the cameras aren't on, or there are simply not set to photograph 20mph, as there's almost always someone behind me practically touching my bumper. I'm often overtaken by impatient drivers who know that they won't get a ticket for going over 30, let alone 20.

vbsydenham
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Location: London

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by vbsydenham » 3 Jul 2017 16:12

I've participated in some community speed monitoring with the Met and we always ended up sending letters to those travelling at 25 or above. So I suspect that's a general rule for enforcement. The aim of 20mph zones isn't really to get everyone driving at 20, they are designed to lower the average speed in a given area by as much as possible.

The London Ambulance Service reported that the City of London 20 mph zone resulted in a 2.5 mph reduction in average speeds. Which sounds like a poor result but apparently can have a dramatic effect on your chances of survival if involved in a collision.

bensonby
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Location: Kent

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by bensonby » 3 Jul 2017 17:34

I did an FOI request to the Met that I got back a few weeks ago asking for the number of drivers ticketed or prosecuted in the first six months of the 20mph scheme being in operation. The answer was 8.

One issue I have is that the signage doesn't appear consistent: there are several points across the borough where 30mph signage is still in situ or you enter the 20mph section but you don't actually have a proper 600mm road sign with the number in a red circle.

vbsydenham
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Location: London

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by vbsydenham » 4 Jul 2017 07:31

A far more pertinent question bensonby would be what is the difference in the observed average speed following the 20mph zones.

The absence of ticketing does not necessarily mean an absence of impact.

bensonby
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Location: Kent

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by bensonby » 4 Jul 2017 08:10

No of course it doesn't. Indeed, it always used to be policy that 20mph limits weren't actively policed and they should "self policing" by ergonomic measures to alter behaviour. However, I don't know whether any speed surveys have been done, where they may have been done, or by which agency.

mot
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Joined: 19 Feb 2016 17:37
Location: Sydenham

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by mot » 4 Jul 2017 10:06

vbsydenham wrote:I've participated in some community speed monitoring with the Met and we always ended up sending letters to those travelling at 25 or above. So I suspect that's a general rule for enforcement. The aim of 20mph zones isn't really to get everyone driving at 20, they are designed to lower the average speed in a given area by as much as possible.

The London Ambulance Service reported that the City of London 20 mph zone resulted in a 2.5 mph reduction in average speeds. Which sounds like a poor result but apparently can have a dramatic effect on your chances of survival if involved in a collision.

It all seems an interesting direction for traffic policing! Extending the logic, does it mean if they actually wanted to
achieve the 20mph speeds they should set the limits at 10mph?

Can't help but think it might have short term gains (speed reduction on the cheap) but introducing
effectively non-enforceable laws (despite the 8 tickets) must undermine respect for the rules ultimately.

syd-gal
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Location: Sydenham

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by syd-gal » 4 Jul 2017 13:51

On roads such as Kent House Rd where the limit changes from 30 to 20 half way along, most vehicles take no notice, and continue to belt along at 30+ !!!

Eagle
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Location: F Hill

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by Eagle » 4 Jul 2017 14:25

I know the Police low in numbers but speeders must be prosecuted to the full rigour of the law.


Good Day,

vbsydenham
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Location: London

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by vbsydenham » 4 Jul 2017 15:10

mot wrote:It all seems an interesting direction for traffic policing! Extending the logic, does it mean if they actually wanted to achieve the 20mph speeds they should set the limits at 10mph?
Not sure that is extending the logic - But this is not a novel approach. We (including the authorities) all know that few people travel at or below 30 in a 30, 40 in a 40 and so on. Finding the correct level is about managing the risk of death and injury set against the need to have an efficient road system and public spaces that aren't just for moving motorised traffic as quickly as possible.

There are some places in the borough where they get that balance right. Others where they most certainly do not.

vbsydenham
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Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by vbsydenham » 4 Jul 2017 15:14

syd-gal wrote:On roads such as Kent House Rd where the limit changes from 30 to 20 half way along, most vehicles take no notice, and continue to belt along at 30+ !!!
Kent House Rd is a great example of design failure. At one end it is so wide with so much wasted space. And at the other end it is full of pinch points and parked cars - So hostile to anyone not in a car.

gillyjp
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Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by gillyjp » 12 Jul 2017 06:12

I find it almost impossible to keep to the 20mph speed limit. In fact I think it's distracting to keep looking at my speedometer to check I'm not exceeding this speed limit. It is even more distracting bordering on irritating having some one driving within an inch of my bumper trying to intimidate me for observing the stated speed limit. Newlands Park Road is another case in point where the speed limit goes from 30 to 20mph half way along where the borough changes. I don't even want to begin complaining about those ghastly 20mph painted signs on the actual road surface.

vbsydenham
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Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by vbsydenham » 12 Jul 2017 06:40

Sounds like you need to go back to driver training gillyjp

stuart
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Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by stuart » 12 Jul 2017 09:44

gillyjp wrote:I find it almost impossible to keep to the 20mph speed limit. In fact I think it's distracting to keep looking at my speedometer to check I'm not exceeding this speed limit.
Yes, I'm shocked too. If you are unaware of the speed of the vehicle by the sound of the engine or your progress along the road - you are clearly unsafe to drive atm.

So please for the sake of all vulnerable road users please throw away your keys or take a step back and re-examine how you can acquire the skill you are currently lacking. It should not be difficult. Try going up and down this side of College Road without looking at the speedometer. I bet you will find your won't be averaging much more than 20 mph (possibly less). That's because of the bumps of course. But you choose the speed before you hit them. So you can do it. Just imagine they are there when they ain't on Westwood Hill!

HTH, Stuart

Parker1970
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Location: Kirkdale

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by Parker1970 » 12 Jul 2017 14:22

vbsydenham wrote:Sounds like you need to go back to driver training gillyjp
To be fair, gillyjp is right about the other part. There are many drivers that sit on your bumper almost egging you on to ignore the speed limit on westwood hill. :)

vbsydenham
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Location: London

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by vbsydenham » 12 Jul 2017 14:39

I know, I've experienced it. Not an excuse for speeding up and/or increasing the speed limit 8)

JRobinson
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Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by JRobinson » 12 Jul 2017 15:35

try driving in first gear only. you'll find that if you just lift your foot off the accelerator, your speed will drop considerably faster than being in say third gear and having to take your foot off the gas, and then press it on the brake to slow down.
once you're used to driving at 20 in first gear, try doing it in second gear. I'm sure you'll get there eventually.

alywin
Posts: 660
Joined: 27 Aug 2009 12:33
Location: Penge side of Sydenham

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by alywin » 13 Jul 2017 10:15

Only try it in non-residential roads so you're not excessively adding to the health-harming pollution levels around the poor blighters who have to breathe it in.

rod taylor
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Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by rod taylor » 13 Jul 2017 12:02

monkeyarms wrote:I always try to stick to 20 going down the hill from Crystal Palace, but I've frequently been somewhere between 20 and 30mph as I've gone past the cameras. And I've yet to receive a ticket.
There's a kid that regularly does more than 20mph coming down the hill from Crystal Palace on a skateboard. It looks exhilarating.

EUSSR
Posts: 70
Joined: 16 May 2013 14:40

Re: 20 mph speed limits

Post by EUSSR » 15 Jul 2017 13:38

"If you are unaware of the speed of the vehicle by the sound of the engine or your progress along the road - you are clearly unsafe to drive atm."


what utter garbage

HTH... EUSSR

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