Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

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Parker1970
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Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by Parker1970 » 7 Aug 2017 11:32

I got snarled up in some new roadworks on Friday evening at the double roundabout at the top of Westwood Hill / Crystal Palace Parade. For those of you that only use that route occasionally, you may want to avoid it entirely where possible.

It's currently got three way traffic lights on it whilst they convert the roundabouts into "Dutch Roundabouts" and the roadworks will be there until at least 28th Feb 2018.

If, like me, you have no idea what a dutch roundabout is, it is basically a roundabout with an inner and outer lane, the outer lane is cycles only with pedestrian crossings at each exit.

For example:-
Image

Not sure what I think about that. Will be good for cyclists but not sure about the traffic.
Last edited by Parker1970 on 8 Aug 2017 09:16, edited 1 time in total.

stuart
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by stuart » 7 Aug 2017 12:05

Parker1970 wrote:Not sure what I think about that. Will be good for cyclists but not sure about the traffic.
Cycles are traffic too! And a fast growing part of it to everyone's benefit.

I regularly have to go up Westwood Hill and down Fountain Drive. The present layout is why I usually do it by car which is still dangerous as three lanes converge into one as you go through the roundabout in the opposite direction .

So, on paper, I welcome the transition which works well both in Belgium and The Netherlands where it is more or less the standard way of building a junction. Hopefully, it will encourage British drivers to behave more like Dutch ones!

If only they could reduce the gradient on Westwood Hiill & Fountain Drive too ...

Stuart
Last edited by stuart on 7 Aug 2017 12:09, edited 1 time in total.

vbsydenham
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by vbsydenham » 7 Aug 2017 12:09

Unfortunately what we're getting up there is a very botched implementation of a Dutch style roundabout. So it will be bad for people in cars, on bikes and on foot. Missed opportunity.

stuart
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by stuart » 7 Aug 2017 12:11

vbsydenham wrote:Unfortunately what we're getting up there is a very botched implementation of a Dutch style roundabout. So it will be bad for people in cars, on bikes and on foot. Missed opportunity.
I do note no colour coding and not making the lane flush with the other lanes confusing the vehicle exit. Is there more I've missed?

Stuart

vbsydenham
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by vbsydenham » 7 Aug 2017 12:59

Cycles are not crossing the carriageway at the correct angle all the way around, presumably in an effort to save space. Also, if I remember the designs correctly, there is clear room for confusion around priority at crossing points. Meaning motors won't be required to yield to bikes, so remaining on the main carriageway is by far the quicker and easier option for most cycle movements through the junction.

Prediction: It mostly won't be used and there will be an increase in collisions/near misses and a decrease in user comfort all round. This will be used by the local authority/TfL as an excuse to ditch/water down other schemes.

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by stuart » 7 Aug 2017 14:21

The major problem I encounter at Belgian/Dutch roundabouts is my lack of trust that vehicles will yield as I pass across their path. Hence (like my fellow British riders) I tend to slow and hesitate.

This really annoys drivers over there as they tend to time their approach to slide past behind me - so I end up holding them up. It is likely to take decades (as it did over there) to get any system like this refined to work efficiently and safely. It also imho depends on presumed liability dictating the approach of drivers.

So day one of the above I expect to see chaos there and the usual complaints here. But we have to start from somewhere if we are ever to see Crystal Palace Parade become other than an irritating car park at peak times and a race track at others.

Rome wasn't built in a day. But how many months to build a bl**dy roundabout?

Stuart

Parker1970
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by Parker1970 » 7 Aug 2017 14:34

stuart wrote:
Parker1970 wrote:Not sure what I think about that. Will be good for cyclists but not sure about the traffic.
Cycles are traffic too! And a fast growing part of it to everyone's benefit.
Apologies, poor wording on my part. What I meant was I believe the traffic jams are likely to worsen, though that is just my prediction. There are very few dutch roundabouts in this country and I think it will cause a lot of confusion.

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by stuart » 7 Aug 2017 14:44

Parker1970 wrote:There are very few dutch roundabouts in this country and I think it will cause a lot of confusion.
Yes, I agree - the paradox is we need a lot more of them so both cyclists and drivers become familiar and comfortable with them and, in the end, reduce congestion & KSIs. Not a problem in other countries.

Stuart

vbsydenham
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by vbsydenham » 7 Aug 2017 15:12

stuart wrote:So day one of the above I expect to see chaos there and the usual complaints here. But we have to start from somewhere if we are ever to see Crystal Palace Parade become other than an irritating car park at peak times and a race track at others. Rome wasn't built in a day. But how many months to build a bl**dy roundabout?
Yes, agree. But the wider point is that they need to get it right when they do build "Dutch style" infrastructure. They haven't got this right and the bigger risk is that it undermines the support for similar, better schemes elsewhere.

The Council was not short of people pointing this out to them during the design and consultation phase. But they've gone ahead with a substandard design regardless.

bjc
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by bjc » 7 Aug 2017 20:42

There's a particularly pointless version of this on
A21 Bromley common. As said earlier it's easier/safer just to stay with the vehicle flow.

https://goo.gl/maps/NzxxuFn3zUn

I hope it's better!

Barrie
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by Barrie » 8 Aug 2017 02:44

What I cant understand is why is going to take until End of Frebruary to complete! 8 months seem a very generous allowance but when you see the small number of operatives there and the lack of progress then it's understandable. I'm sure a more speedy time table can be worked out.
The traffic and pollution we are seeing now are nothing to what we will see when the holidays end and the nights get longer.
If you want to complain then Councillor Andy Simmons
Labour Councillor for College Ward has taken this on but needs your support and complaints. Andy.Simmons@southwark.gov.uk

vbsydenham
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by vbsydenham » 8 Aug 2017 07:26

If you drive a car in London and you are concerned about pollution there are far more effective things you can do than write to the council complaining about roadworks for a cycle scheme...

stuart
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Sydenham Hill

Post by stuart » 8 Aug 2017 13:42

bjc wrote:There's a particularly pointless version of this on
A21 Bromley common. As said earlier it's easier/safer just to stay with the vehicle flow.

https://goo.gl/maps/NzxxuFn3zUn!
Nope that's the absolute opposite* of a 'Dutch' roundabout and any sensible cyclist would follow the government's sage advice and ignore it and follow the vehicular lane. I certainly would.

* A Dutch roundabout gives a priority path to cyclists - not direct them into a ridiculously sharp 90 degree turn to yield leaving them in a poor position to see what's about to hit them. I'm assuming no actual cyclists were involved in this design. What a waste!

Stuart

vbsydenham
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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by vbsydenham » 8 Aug 2017 14:03

stuart wrote:Nope that's the absolute opposite* of a 'Dutch' roundabout
As is what they are building on the parade:

http://www.2.southwark.gov.uk/downloads ... ace_parade

The angles at the crossing points are wrong and there is ambiguous priority throughout.
stuart wrote:I'm assuming no actual cyclists were involved in this design.
There was in this one, and it's still rubbish.

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by stuart » 8 Aug 2017 14:13

vbsydenham wrote:The angles at the crossing points are wrong and there is ambiguous priority throughout.
Bl**dy Hell. Now I understand your first post which I had assumed applied to the image at the start of the thread which is more like what should have been done.

Well I think you can anticipate my path coming up Westwood Hill and descending Fountain Drive. The safest path but one which will force me to hold up and annoy any following motorist who may legitimately complain that I'm not using an expensively provided piece of 'cycling' infrastructure.

I just hope no one is tempted to do something stupid as a result. And I will be sure to be doing it by car when dark. If they couldn't get cyclists to agree why didn't they just do nothing?

Stuart

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by vbsydenham » 8 Aug 2017 14:25

stuart wrote:I just hope no one is tempted to do something stupid as a result. And I will be sure to be doing it by car when dark. If they couldn't get cyclists to agree why didn't they just do nothing?
Doing nothing not an option when there is Quietway money to be grabbed. Doing something actually good also not an option when reducing motor vehicle capacity in any way is not permitted. And here is the result.

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by stuart » 8 Aug 2017 14:31

I just checked it out. If I follow the safest route I have to cross one lane of traffic and make comfortable right turn and maintain a good turn of speed (15/20 mph) through the shortest path.

If I follow the cyclist route I have to cross seven lanes and make two very sharp turns, probably having to de-clip and stop - one straight into traffic which may - or may not give way. I really don't want to find out which.

I trust you got at least a sniff of what were they smoking VB.

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by parker » 8 Aug 2017 14:37

Which local authority is to blame for this then? Bromley, Lewisham or is it Southwark - who also oversaw the backward, short sighted 20mph implementation of Sydenham Hill turned into a potential driving school for toddlers?

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by stuart » 8 Aug 2017 14:43

Please Parker start your own thread or continue one of the other 20mph threads rather than hijack this one. Which is rather important for almost everyone in Upper Sydenham and beyond whether on foot, two or more wheels.

As to responsibility. There may be a clue in VB's link.

Stuart

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Re: Roadworks Crystal Palace/Fountain Drive/Westwood Hill

Post by parker » 8 Aug 2017 15:34

stuart wrote:Please Parker start your own thread or continue one of the other 20mph threads rather than hijack this one. Which is rather important for almost everyone in Upper Sydenham and beyond whether on foot, two or more wheels.

As to responsibility. There may be a clue in VB's link.

Stuart
I thought it might be interesting which local authority may be keeping you unhappy. But yes, it is important for everyone in Upper Sydenham.

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