Aslef to recommend ending strikes on Southern Rail

[Parker1970]

*Gets on Soapbox*
How many news interviews have I seen regarding these strikes about Dirver Only Operated trains? Dozens. In each and every one of them the unions have stressed that these strikes are about passenger safety and how important that safety is to their members.

Southern: "Here, have a 28% pay rise over 5 years"
Unions: "Sure, we can accept that"

2 years of disruption over safety, all settled by simply offering them more money.

I'm not shocked, I'm not even mildly surprised.

*Gets off Soapox, drops mic and flounces off*

Refers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41680860

[Parker1970]

Is safety not covered in the settlement Parker?

From the BBC article:

"The proposed agreement on DOO means we will have a second safety-trained person on every train covered by this agreement, except in exceptional circumstances.

"That person will have all the relevant safety competence including the skills to evacuate passengers in an emergency," he said.

That second person was offered in previous proposals a year ago. It's basically an on board member of staff but the driver will still be responsible for operating the doors. Those previous proposals were still refused. They cited poor platform camera's and visibility etc as a risk as the driver would not be able to see clearly if it was safe to close the doors.

[JayB]

And yet the London Overground drivers manage to close the doors so well.All by themselves! As do Southern drivers on our Metro routes. Must be magic doors on them there trains.The general quality of public transport down here needs great improvement.

[stuart]

And yet the London Overground drivers manage to close the doors so well.All by themselves! As do Southern drivers on our Metro routes. Must be magic doors on them there trains.The general quality of public transport down here needs great improvement.

There is a difference between 5 coaches on a straight platform with platform staff and twelve on an unmanned bendy one in the sticks.

Stuart

[JayB]

And yet the London Overground drivers manage to close the doors so well.All by themselves! As do Southern drivers on our Metro routes. Must be magic doors on them there trains.The general quality of public transport down here needs great improvement.

There is a difference between 5 coaches on a straight platform with platform staff and twelve on an unmanned bendy one in the sticks.

Stuart

But the metro trains are 10 coaches and trains in the rest of the country seem to manage when they are longer. I am not convinced by this argument at all.

[alywin]

"Manage". Somewhere on a railway forum, a year or two before all this strike business blew up, I remember reading a discussion between experienced railway workers about how safe DOO actually was, and one conclusion it reached was that a local Metro accident which had resulted in life-changing injuries would probably have been avoided without DOO. So possibly there is some genuine cause for concern.

[Likelife]

And yet the London Overground drivers manage to close the doors so well.All by themselves! As do Southern drivers on our Metro routes. Must be magic doors on them there trains.The general quality of public transport down here needs great improvement.

There is a difference between 5 coaches on a straight platform with platform staff and twelve on an unmanned bendy one in the sticks.

Stuart

But the metro trains are 10 coaches and trains in the rest of the country seem to manage when they are longer. I am not convinced by this argument at all.

I don't wish to go too rail forum on here but, I must say that's nonsense. Most of the country doesn't use DOO and the longest trains in the country are around here/have guards. Only London Overground, Thameslink-Great Northern-Gatwick Express, c2c and Chiltern are fully DOO. Whilst some of Greater Anglia, Southeastern, Southern and Great Western have DOO/DCO. Every Intercity route, all routes out of Waterloo and everywhere in the South West, Midlands, North, Scotland and Wales currently have a guard on board.

Firstly, it was cautiously agreed back in BR days when the railway's passenger numbers were declining. Its widely agreed amongst rail staff on the ground that DOO is not a safe as made out and that the railway has been lucky thus far. Financially, it's in the best interest of drivers to agree to DOO, however, you'll find it difficult to find a driver that actually likes it. Recently, there was an incident on the DLR where a woman was dragged at Bank station and there were also similar incidents at West Wickham and Hayes & Harlington where if there was a guard, the incident would've most definitely not occured. Furthermore, there are dispatch issues with DOO. If you've ever heard "delays due to sunlight at Lewisham" its because the driver on trains here use mirrors to see if its safe to depart - if the sun shines in the mirrors, the driver can't see, the train can't leave. This doesn't happen on routes with guards.

TfL talks about staffing all stations being important for customer service and safety but then, it sacked all staff on trains, then talks about passenger safety on trains being a problem. We've got to the point where female only carriages are being talked about because some women don't feel safe; it's reasonable to say passengers feel safer, especially at night, with a member of staff available. Guards have saved lives on trains all over the country. Passengers who have been taken ill, have had help from guards while the driver does their job of getting to a station where medical attention can be met. Drivers should not be multitasking trying to help passengers and driving at the same time. Furthermore, if God forbid, the driver is seriously injured or even killed, who will be there to help up to 12 cars of passengers? No one.

Finally, while the government says on Southern, onboard staff jobs are guaranteed, its only until the end of the franchise. Southern (who has operated the Gatwick Express for years) said the same with onboard staff on the GatEx, and they were sacked within a year. They also had sacked Southern mainline catering staff with one week's notice. So you can't blame them for not trusting (or liking) Southern management.

I suspect the reason they've given up is because passengers were too happy to blame the staff for issues and not the government who was forcing this. The changes were not necessary in the slightest. The government and GTR used dubious reasons for forcing this like "the new trains don't have guard equipment" (which was irrelevant because the new trains are Thameslink trains, not Southern) and "making staff more visible" - guards were far more visible than what the onboard staff are now.

[mosy]

Do know if the wording changed in the final agreement, Likelife, in respect of there being an onboard member "except in exceptional circumstances"? I seem to recall when it was first offered, the distrust was that there would virtually always be an exceptional circumstance because the staffing was deliberately kept skimpy so that there was never enough to cover sickness or holidays, so it was just a back-door way of making "exceptional" trains the norm. Also on trains having better quality cameras and other failsafes if the cameras themselves conk out.

On the dragging incidents, in my swift sprinting days I'd always look to see if the guard had waved his flag before diving for the doors since you knew then that they'd be closing. Much more useful having a guard at the back or middle than a staff member clamped in with the other sardines on busy trains.
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FWIW, I'm on the driver + guard side of the argument. I heard the safety assurances a year or so ago given by the minister in parliament (where you're supposed to tell the truth) supposedly reflecting an independent report, which it did except for missing out all the provisos (i.e. safe provided that) which presumably was so the public would simply dispel the safety issue and return the "issue" back to unreasonable union fuss. Even the report writers complained about the minister's selective interpretation. Too late now if agreement has been reached, but hopefully with safety concerns being more adequately addressed.

[Parker1970]

FWIW, I'm on the driver + guard side of the argument. I heard the safety assurances a year or so ago given by the minister in parliament (where you're supposed to tell the truth) supposedly reflecting an independent report, which it did except for missing out all the provisos (i.e. safe provided that) which presumably was so the public would simply dispel the safety issue and return the "issue" back to unreasonable union fuss. Even the report writers complained about the minister's selective interpretation. Too late now if agreement has been reached, but hopefully with safety concerns being more adequately addressed.

I'm on the side of having a guard on board and moving THROUGH the train providing a presence and safety. Currently from what I have seen on the 10-12 coach trains I have been on, they open/close the doors and go back to their newspaper. That's a waste in my opinion. Having a dedicated person for the doors is not (in my opinion) providing much increase in safety. Accidents will still happen, but such is the way of stupid (people walking too close the platform edge, jumping on tracks to retrieve lost glove, glasses, phone, goldfish etc) and there is no fix for stupid.

I'd even accept the "exceptional circumstances" where a guard could not be provided. Weighing up the chance of something going wrong against several hundred people on a train getting their train instead of it being cancelled it has to be a slim chance of going awry.

[mosy]

Parker1970, I tend to agree with your first paragraph that guard (or onboard staff) duties should be more than just doors and men/women with "just in case" training with the exception that it's not easy to worm your way through a crowded train given that Southern's these days are designed for more standing, so not like intercity trains with nice clear aisleways, and so guards are probably as trapped as anyone else if a passenger needs help or worse if panic occurs. (That's train design though, not guard placement as it would pertain wherever the guard is.)

As I said, it wasn't "exceptional" that was the issue when first put forward, it was that exceptional would likely become normal sooner or later. On the other hand, we expect trains to be as safe as they can reasonably be when we board public transport "at your own risk". We don't expect there to be known but ignored risks we must put up with because no competing equivalent alternative is available. Company bosses know we will, because we have to, put up with what we're given - that's business infallibility in action don't you think?

[Likelife]

I'm not sure what the wording is as I don't work for GTR and I don't personally know anyone who works for them. That being said, there are divides and the RMT aren't having any of it, having just announced more strike action.

As Gibb report, the report itself was slightly disputed concerning the accuracy; but there were fair points and it did clearly say that all sides were at fault (as well as poor infrastructure causing delays). As you say, the government did twist the report; Tories only blaming the unions and never taking responsibility when in the house will never end. It seems the government commissioned the report to then only ignore half of it and follow a couple of its recommendations. A major key to the problems facing the industry right now is Grayling. That incompetent idiot needs to go, or even better unseated.