A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

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Tim Lund
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Tim Lund » 29 Sep 2018 17:31

chrisbeach wrote: Nothing instigates a new forum quicker than totalitarianism on the old forum.
I think the rise of SE23.life was to do with being so much easier to use and smarter looking than SE23.com, and the leg work put in by Chris, Snazzy and I think many others I'm less aware of, meeting people face to face, and getting them to sign up. It still wouldn't have worked without the over controlling moderation of SE23.com, but it took more than that to instigate SE23.life.

I wonder about the long term future of SE23.life now, because, as others have noticed, two of its mod team, including Chris, who starts so many of the threads there, have moved away, Chris to Tunbridge Wells, and Londondrz to Norfolk

I'd have given the link to where Chris posted about his move to Tunbridge Wells, and all the factors considered, but when I just searched SE23.life for it, it seems to have been deleted

Image

However, there's one posting he made referring to it which the airbrushing may have missed, and as you can see, above it, the moderator action taken against me a few days ago on another thread, in which I queried Chris suggesting he still lived near the South Circular.

Here's the post

https://se23.life/t/invisible-killer-ho ... tory/10374

but it's worth noting it was edited at 9.26 am, 27th September. Previously it had "for those of us living near the South Circular". OK, that's not outright Chris saying he does still live round here, but it's the impression given. His profile does also still have Honor Oak Park as his location, and Londondrz still has 'resident in Forest Hill since 2001'

So, with these two leading posters there no longer being local, and what I at least find a slightly totalitarian approach, I think there is scope to a genuinely local, independent and trusted Forum to reinvigorate itself.

One question has to be the choice of software - on which I am not an expert. Could there be a trade off between security and the application used? I recall Stuart's resistance when I once argued for using WordPress, and from what I've learned since, I've come to accept he was probably right.

admin
Site Admin
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Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by admin » 29 Sep 2018 19:21

Chris,

You haven't met me, but I can assure you I have met Tim, Robin, Mosy, Stuart, Parker and several others etc.

I live in Kent House Road.

Since 1986. That good enough for you?

admin

alywin
Posts: 703
Joined: 27 Aug 2009 12:33
Location: Penge side of Sydenham

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by alywin » 29 Sep 2018 22:44

Robin Orton wrote:
alywin wrote:
Re anonymity, though, I'd be highly reluctant if I had to sign my full name. I mean, I'm generally careful about what I post on here, but if I had to post my real name someone could get hold of the phone directory and locate me precisely, and I'm not keen on that idea: I might have said something about a neighbour, or just made some comment which might put my own security at risk.
Fair enough, but I'd just like to say that I've posted under my full name for many years on three different local forums and have never had any problems. In fact, I think it's helped me to meet real local people who I wouldn't have done otherwise.
Maybe, but I'm assuming you're male (although I know there are female Robins). Perhaps that makes a difference.

Mayowthorpe
Posts: 109
Joined: 30 Jul 2014 07:16
Location: Sydenham

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Mayowthorpe » 30 Sep 2018 10:21

Dom Johnston wrote:Hi everyone,

So, finally the house move seems to be finalising and we are looking to complete and be part of the community from the 26th October. Very happy to be joining you all Sydenham!!

I'm moving from East Dulwich, and I've been a member on the forum there for quite some time now and it's a very very active community board with items for sale and wanted, what's going on, family rooms, lost and found and the community are posting on there lots throughout the day.

Since I've been on this site (and please don't think this is at all a criticism), updates and posts aren't very regular at all.

For instance on here are 3 posts in the for sale section and 8 in the wanted in total. This can be topped in about 15 minutes on the EDF and I'm sure that there are lots of things that people will take if you no longer need it. After all, one man's trash is another man's treasure!

Surely there are people who have had work carried out that can recommend their tradesman? Or tradesmen/women who are looking for more work?

Shops that you'd recommend? or avoid for that matter?

I know Sydenham has a proper community (much more so than ED), so I think it would be good if we could make this place more active, arrange more community things and basically get to know each other as part of the wider community even more.

I appreciate that it's a big ask and isn't going to change overnight, but it's such a great way of keeping people informed of events and changes and offering services and good as well.

Who's with me?
Personally, I like the forum in Sydenham. It has the right balance of information and news for living in the area.

I used to live in ED, and the ED Forum is 95% based on people having a go at someone else. Its so boring and childish.

If not that, its people being nosey (ooh, did you see the police, whats going on?), asking the same questions over and over, or speculating on house prices. Yawn.

For selling items, my wife has more success on the local facebook groups. They are more accessible via the app, and easier to upload photos.

ED can keep its leaf.

Bovine Juice
Posts: 257
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 11:35
Location: Penge

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Bovine Juice » 30 Sep 2018 14:27

alywin wrote:
Talking about moribund forums, has anyone been on Virtual Norwood recently? :-(
That was a great forum. I don't even live in CP but I met a few others via that and as a result formed a neighbouring community group, the PTB.

The owner of VN made some terrible decisions though in his efforts to make money out of the popularity of the forum and in doing so enraged a few of its regulars, who openly dissented. As pay back he banned not only them but also others like me who hadn't even expressed a view but had chatted with them on there about stuff. The fool now has a dead board.

Tim Lund
Posts: 6687
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Tim Lund » 30 Sep 2018 15:58

Bovine Juice wrote:
alywin wrote:
Talking about moribund forums, has anyone been on Virtual Norwood recently? :-(
That was a great forum. I don't even live in CP but I met a few others via that and as a result formed a neighbouring community group, the PTB.

The owner of VN made some terrible decisions though in his efforts to make money out of the popularity of the forum and in doing so enraged a few of its regulars, who openly dissented. As pay back he banned not only them but also others like me who hadn't even expressed a view but had chatted with them on there about stuff. The fool now has a dead board.
Whether any money is being made out of a local Forum is always a question lurking in the background for some people, and if not, why is anyone running it? I think it's a bit too cynical to assume someone will be trying to make a profit, because I know of plenty of other community initiatives which happen because someone is just interested in their local community. Advertising doesn't bother me that much, and unless it's intrusive, it's not going to stop me browsing and posting to a Forum. When others ask if someone is making money out of a Forum, OK, I'm interested, and ideally there will be a clear answer, and some kind of indication of how much. However, when I've pressed Stuart on this, he's not been prepared to give a precise number, but assured me that it's no money spinner, and what revenue he does make only partly offsets the costs. I've known him many years, and I have absolutely no doubt this is true. With both VN and SE23.com going into decline because their owners were trying to extract too much from them backs this up. If those Forums were money spinners as they were, it would be less likely that their owners would have risked killing the goose laying golden eggs.

This doesn't apply so much to Penge Tourist Board, because it's a Facebook group, so we know who if anyone is making any money from it, but I doubt if we'll ever know how, and how much. But the Admins will be entirely voluntary, motivated by the same community spirit as the Admins here. Several people I know will not use Facebook, so for them, the local ownership and moderation of a Forum such as this will be a plus. For anyone wanting to reinvigorate this site, that could be a promotional point, although I suspect most people aren't that interested. Maybe just something to have somewhere in the FAQs.

How people make money out of a local Forum is obviously in the first place selling ads, as Mark Zuckerberg can testify



However, the revelations about Cambridge Analytica show that there are other revenue streams - the information about its users which someone with privileged access to the site and the necessary coding expertise can get. That's part of the advertising business model, since it allows ads to be targeted, but it can also be sold to those with an interest in politics. A few years ago a local councillor commented to me that Facebook had been able to find many more supporters for them than they realised were around, which I didn't think much about at the time, but in retrospect, I conclude that mainstream political parties have been paying them for such political information before we all got to hear about Cambridge Analytica. Maybe you could call political messaging advertising, but it feels different to me.

syd
Posts: 259
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Location: lower sydenham

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by syd » 30 Sep 2018 16:14

Hey all, Let’s not forget this site was good enough to get Nando’s or open up. Dom it may not look fancy but we get the job done.

Maybe settle in first and get a feel for the forum before suggesting changing everything. You don’t want to be a gentrifier do you?

Tim Lund
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Location: Silverdale

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Tim Lund » 30 Sep 2018 17:20

syd wrote:Hey all, Let’s not forget this site was good enough to get Nando’s or open up. Dom it may not look fancy but we get the job done.

Maybe settle in first and get a feel for the forum before suggesting changing everything. You don’t want to be a gentrifier do you?
Let Dom settle in, but I think that's a bit harsh!

Robin Orton
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Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
Location: London SE26

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Robin Orton » 30 Sep 2018 19:10

alywin wrote:
Maybe, but I'm assuming you're male...
Yes. Or at any rate I was the last time I looked.

Sorry. I mean, yes, I self-identify as a cisgender male.
Perhaps that makes a difference
So they say.

syd
Posts: 259
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by syd » 30 Sep 2018 19:19

Tim Lund wrote:
syd wrote:Hey all, Let’s not forget this site was good enough to get Nando’s or open up. Dom it may not look fancy but we get the job done.

Maybe settle in first and get a feel for the forum before suggesting changing everything. You don’t want to be a gentrifier do you?
Let Dom settle in, but I think that's a bit harsh!
Ok I didn’t mean to be harsh. I just think the work that Prince did to get Nando’s in Sydenham and JRW challenging the monstrosity is more important than a “nice” looking website. A lot of people have done a lot of work to keep this site going and their efforts should be respected. To post here as a newbie and say it should be better is a little bit rude imo.

Dom Johnston
Posts: 69
Joined: 13 Jun 2018 13:45
Location: Sydenham

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Dom Johnston » 1 Oct 2018 08:05

syd wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:
syd wrote:Hey all, Let’s not forget this site was good enough to get Nando’s or open up. Dom it may not look fancy but we get the job done.

Maybe settle in first and get a feel for the forum before suggesting changing everything. You don’t want to be a gentrifier do you?
Let Dom settle in, but I think that's a bit harsh!
Ok I didn’t mean to be harsh. I just think the work that Prince did to get Nando’s in Sydenham and JRW challenging the monstrosity is more important than a “nice” looking website. A lot of people have done a lot of work to keep this site going and their efforts should be respected. To post here as a newbie and say it should be better is a little bit rude imo.
Syd, you misunderstand my post. I'm merely saying that I think it would be great if it was more active for the local community. The only way that I think it would be "better" is that if it was more active. In my original post I wasn't suggesting that everything was changed.

Even so, surely a fresh pair of eyes on something and some new ideas isn't a bad thing?

I have been a member on here for a little while now. Ever since I decided to move to Sydenham, I have been a member to get a feel for the place, so I don't know how long I have to be a member to no longer be considered a newbie and then any posts I place would be seen as constructive rather than rude?

JRW
Posts: 346
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by JRW » 1 Oct 2018 08:12

Hi Syd, thanks for the kind words.

I have to say that I share some concerns about the site; I use it to get the word out, but do find it dominated by a small number of aggressive posters. It has been difficult for me to keep going against accusations of dishonesty and worse, and I am still here because there is, at the moment, no real option.

I stopped using SE26live because I kept getting shouted down by one particularly domineering poster. He is now here too, but I refuse to give up, so I am just gritting my teeth. I am happy to have my views criticised, but unfortunately long ranting posts mean that the original message - here's the issue; look up the plans and come to your own conclusions - is lost. I always encourage people to contact planning with their views, when they hold opposing views to me. Engagement with the issues is brilliant, and so much better than fatalistic apathy.

Re anonymous posters, I think this is easily solved. Anonymity is important to many people, but it could be seen as a privilege. If people want to make personal comments and aggressive grudge matches, then the moderator could ask them to use their real name, or be barred.

I would like there to be a users forum to discuss these issues, maybe one evening at a pub? If Admin and moderators want to remain anonymous, they can still attend, as users, although they would not be able to run the meeting without disclosing their identity. (Unless they come in masks..!) I think it would be great to have a chance to find out how other stf users feel about these issues, and how we can make it less hostile for everyone.

Growsydenham
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Location: sydenham

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Growsydenham » 2 Oct 2018 10:10

Courtesy, respect and politeness is of course important. But am I right in detecting some of the upset comes in relation to debates around planning decisions, including social housing, and representations made around those? I hope this forum should still be a place for candid but respectful discussion on those. Clearly there is a wide range of local opinion.

JRW
Posts: 346
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by JRW » 2 Oct 2018 15:40

Of course and I am the first to encourage people to express their views even when they flatly disagree with me! The issue discussed, however, was being accused of 'twisting facts' and making stuff up. I have read the paperwork, studied the plans, attended the committee meetings, and done extensive research. A small number of posters choose to make offensive comments on my honesty, while admitting that they haven't read the documention. Assuming that things must have been done by the book because it is the council, or whatever, doesn't actually count as evidence. I have repeatedly offered these posters a meeting to show them the evidence, but not one of them has taken me up on it.

Some people just seem to enjoy being aggressive, and making accusations under an alias. The problem is that this kind of behaviour drives away other people, who just want to know what is going on locally.

Bovine Juice
Posts: 257
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Location: Penge

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Bovine Juice » 2 Oct 2018 16:02

Tim Lund wrote:
This doesn't apply so much to Penge Tourist Board, because it's a Facebook group, so we know who if anyone is making any money from it, but I doubt if we'll ever know how, and how much. But the Admins will be entirely voluntary, motivated by the same community spirit as the Admins here.
The PTB is slightly more than just a Facebook group. Although there is the fb forum (8200+ members), it also has a website and Twitter account (3200 followers), and runs local children's events and annual business awards. It's not-for-profit and any small amounts of money raised through bags, mugs, etc has always been used to pay for website hosting and the cost of the awards.

Tim Lund
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Tim Lund » 2 Oct 2018 19:56

Bovine Juice wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:
This doesn't apply so much to Penge Tourist Board, because it's a Facebook group, so we know who if anyone is making any money from it, but I doubt if we'll ever know how, and how much. But the Admins will be entirely voluntary, motivated by the same community spirit as the Admins here.
The PTB is slightly more than just a Facebook group. Although there is the fb forum (8200+ members), it also has a website and Twitter account (3200 followers), and runs local children's events and annual business awards. It's not-for-profit and any small amounts of money raised through bags, mugs, etc has always been used to pay for website hosting and the cost of the awards.
Thanks for pointing this out to me. Not sure what to take from it, but interesting background

stuart
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Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by stuart » 3 Oct 2018 14:49

JRW wrote:I would like there to be a users forum to discuss these issues, maybe one evening at a pub?
Excellent idea. Maybe the Golden Lion on a quiet night so we can listen to each other?
Who's up for it? And the best night ... ?

Admin doesn't have to be involved - just so we can better understand each other.

Stuart

Tim Lund
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Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by Tim Lund » 3 Oct 2018 17:53

chrisbeach wrote:
stuart wrote: Admin doesn't have to be involved
Seems a shame (and a bit odd) to have the conversation without admin present? What does admin think?
I guess admins just don't have to be controlling ...

admin
Site Admin
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Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by admin » 3 Oct 2018 19:50

I'm not bothered, so long as Stuart reports back (which I'm sure he will)

admin

JRW
Posts: 346
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Re: A Leaf out of East Dulwich Forum's book?

Post by JRW » 3 Oct 2018 22:59

A gorilla suit would preserve admin's mystique.......

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