Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

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JGD
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Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by JGD » 30 Oct 2019 09:53

Really sad news - cyclist killed in collision with lorry outside Catford Station early on Wednesday morning.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transpo ... 73921.html

stuart
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by stuart » 30 Oct 2019 13:27

Sad fact: HGV's constitute 4% of traffic but are involved in over 60% of cycling deaths in London.

Stuart

Nic
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by Nic » 30 Oct 2019 21:09

There's a petition doing the rounds - https://www.change.org/p/transport-for- ... tford-road

mosy
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by mosy » 3 Nov 2019 17:14

Very sad.

I note the linked article says, or at least implies, that the lorry driver didn't stop immediately. It makes me wonder if he even knew, if it happened in his blind spot (or one of them). I have seen cycles mount the pavement specifically to give lorries a wide berth which is not good if pedestrians are near but at least recognises the need to stay clear of lorries.

It's not said what happened on this occasion. However there was a conversation somewhere on here that highlighted the huge distance of such lorry drivers' blindspots unless cameras or beepers are installed. Mandatory upgrading which could be done quickly should perhaps be at the top of any safety improvement agenda, or a restriction on lorries which aren't upgraded, as road widening etc could take years.

JGD
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by JGD » 3 Nov 2019 19:56

mosy wrote:
3 Nov 2019 17:14
I note the linked article says, or at least implies, that the lorry driver didn't stop immediately. It makes me wonder if he even knew, if it happened in his blind spot (or one of them). I have seen cycles mount the pavement specifically to give lorries a wide berth which is not good if pedestrians are near but at least recognises the need to stay clear of lorries.

It's not said what happened on this occasion. However there was a conversation somewhere on here that highlighted the huge distance of such lorry drivers' blindspots unless cameras or beepers are installed. Mandatory upgrading which could be done quickly should perhaps be at the top of any safety improvement agenda, or a restriction on lorries which aren't upgraded, as road widening etc could take years.
No details yet. It might be presumed the driver of the lorry would not know.

I think aids in terms of cameras and improved visibility around cabs has become mandatory in London only in recent days.

We don't know how the cyclist and the lorry collided on this occasion.

But what we observe is cyclist after cyclist edging alongside buses and lorries on both the inside and outside irrespective of what turning signals may be showing on the vehicles or not.

The Highway code needs to be altered to the extent that cyclists and motorcyclists must be prohibited from overtaking or undertaking buses and lorries in all circumstances where in the cyclist's judgement they cannot be seen by the other vehicle driver. And that in those circumstance the liability on the cyclist must become absolute. Go into that zone and you become liable.

There once was a rule that de-facto delivered this, in that cyclists and motorcyclists were obliged to overtake/undertake at a distance equivalent to a suddenly opened door on the vehicle being overtaken.

This amendment does not address every outcome in visibility terms but it will save lives.

I can anticipate hearing the screams of anguish of cyclists and motorcyclists protesting that this will be a barrier to them getting the benefit of two wheeled speedy progress through heavy traffic.

This perhaps better that than the screams of their loved ones when the police arrive at their homes to impart bad news.

Additionally why not have 2-3m high flags on cycles and motor-cycles too - it would raise the visibility factor to HGV and bus-drivers and every little helps.

stuart
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by stuart » 4 Nov 2019 17:00

JGD - I understand your pain but the statistics are not with you. When you have time do examine the details of each and every London's cyclist fatality. You will also see that the real problem is not HGVs in general but concentrated on a section of HGVs - primarily in the construction sector who are cutting corners in more ways than one. There is a sort of rule - the bigger the lorry the less the issue. Big artics and buses are surprisingly less of a problem (hats off to their mostly brilliant drivers).

All the cyclists I know will avoid the insides of lorries like the plague. Some idiots don't. They are the sort, like some drivers, who don't read the highway code or would bother to obey any inconvenient law or worry about insurance so your solution isn't much of one I'm afraid.

We have a very specific problem, we know how to solve it and certain companies in the trade have done so reducing incidents related to their lorries almost completely. The mayor is to congratulated in starting to move this from their voluntary action to mandatory on the more recalcitrant. I'm afraid your comments will only divert attention and give comfort to those who want to move blame back to the victims.

Stuart

[Disclaimer: I have no idea yet of the details of this incident so the above comments shouldn't be interpreted of any blame, if any, either way. I'll try and add something after the coroner's report is issued but that may be a long time yet]

JGD
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by JGD » 4 Nov 2019 19:33

Well argued Stuart.

I do hope you are right.

Observationaly however I still feel the frequency of occasions where we see that category of behaviour that you describe as stupid is too great.

Are those instances a result of people being blinded by the need to make constant progress and therefore disregard the hazard and the severity of risk with which they are presented ?

I hope the new technologies and the progress you describe make a real difference.

simono
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by simono » 5 Nov 2019 15:16

As someone who commutes to work most days, rain or shine, I assume every driver on the road has not seen me despite the lights and bright reflecive clothing. I also assume they will cut me up and not look in their mirrors, cut into bus and cycle lanes etc.
I never overtake anything on the inside and ride defensibly at all times. Despite this a week doesn't go by when I don't get cut up and have to slam on my breaks or take evasive action.
The worst perpetrators are however buses. They pull out without signalling or just keep coming when you are already along side them. Given we share the bus lanes the drivers could do with a bit more training and consideration!

carty
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by carty » 6 Nov 2019 08:44

Buses are actually the main cause of injury/death to cyclist, but of course TFL will not release that figure.

stuart
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by stuart » 6 Nov 2019 23:00

carty wrote:
6 Nov 2019 08:44
Buses are actually the main cause of injury/death to cyclist, but of course TFL will not release that figure.
Every cyclist death in London is well publicised - by the Evening Standard for a start. A friend of mine collected the statistics for a time. It's now out of date (as he returned to Germany) but does well show that buses are not the main problem - despite the fact that cyclists share almost all bus lanes (unlike lorries): https://cycling-intelligence.com/2011/0 ... ous-is-it/

See also this list of pedestrian & cyclist deaths. I counted 2 involving buses out of 59 so far this year: https://visionzerolondon.wordpress.com/ ... in-london/

Perhaps you could indicate why you say these are wrong.

Stuart

vbsydenham
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by vbsydenham » 7 Nov 2019 12:02

A pity to note - apart from in Stuart's contributions - the usual victim blaming, ignorance, and total lack of any kind of evidence based solution. These incidents will continue to happen as long as we tolerate the sharing of road space between people on bikes, and people driving large lorries with poor visibility. Everything else is noise.

If you want to make a difference, write to your MP and your local councillors and ask them what they are doing to install safe, segregated, active travel infrastructure in your local area.

mosy
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by mosy » 7 Nov 2019 15:42

vbsydenham wrote:
7 Nov 2019 12:02
A pity to note - apart from in Stuart's contributions - the usual victim blaming, ignorance, and total lack of any kind of evidence based solution. These incidents will continue to happen as long as we tolerate the sharing of road space between people on bikes, and people driving large lorries with poor visibility. Everything else is noise.

If you want to make a difference, write to your MP and your local councillors and ask them what they are doing to install safe, segregated, active travel infrastructure in your local area.
In these parts, roadways are highly restricted by railway routes so road space itself is limited to what it is. Accidents happen when people don't respect or momentarily forget that it's shared space.

There hasn't been "a total lack of evidence based solutions" suggested. Whether potential solutions would be employed by those who take risks is a different matter.

vbsydenham
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by vbsydenham » 7 Nov 2019 15:59

A succinct statement of your priorities and values wrt transport in London. Well done.

CK2019
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Re: Fatal Accident Outside Catford Station

Post by CK2019 » 8 Nov 2019 09:27

carty wrote:
6 Nov 2019 08:44
Buses are actually the main cause of injury/death to cyclist, but of course TFL will not release that figure.
Do you have a source for that comment or is that your own personal opinion?

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