Gentrifiers

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syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

Hi all,

So my journey to work has now been disrupted as the route I took on my motorbike for the past 5 years now has no motorbike signs for no reason. There was never a problem until the cliched gentrifiers arrived who are miserable cause they cant afford Islington. Plantation shutters and washed bricks are a curse to sarf London

GRP
Posts: 9
Joined: 5 Feb 2020 13:27

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by GRP »

I think irritation with motorbikes with non-compliant silencers transcends class boundaries

JGD
Posts: 698
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by JGD »

Noisy vehicles, quads, motorbikes and whatever are a source of regular irritation to us on the main roads in our area - especially the nocturnal offenders.
GRP wrote:
12 Feb 2020 10:49
I think irritation with motorbikes with non-compliant silencers transcends class boundaries
Don't recall Syd advising us he fits into that category.

Syd - do tell - what streets and in what borough(s) have had restrictions imposed - these changes require official Traffic Notices to be posted by the authorities involved.

And it won't be the first time that restrictions have been imposed that are not compliant with process and at the behest of a narrow section of the community by the result of their unsustainable complaints.

The driver of a compliant vehicle or rider of a compliant motorbike should not be subject to restrictions that are introduced for reasons that are not justifiable or sustainable.

GRP
Posts: 9
Joined: 5 Feb 2020 13:27

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by GRP »

JGD wrote:
12 Feb 2020 11:33
Noisy vehicles, quads, motorbikes and whatever are a source of regular irritation to us on the main roads in our area - especially the nocturnal offenders.
GRP wrote:
12 Feb 2020 10:49
I think irritation with motorbikes with non-compliant silencers transcends class boundaries
Don't recall Syd advising us he fits into that category.
Possibly not, but it appears that a reasonable proportion of bikes make a lot of noise and I suspect that is what's led to this 'ban'. I don't live on a main road (side road perpendicular to busy main road and perhaps 30-40m from the junction) and the noise from bikes can still be quite irritating.

The bike community as a whole wants to look at the consequences of the lack of responsibility of the few; this is what ends up happening.

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

JGD wrote:
12 Feb 2020 11:33
Noisy vehicles, quads, motorbikes and whatever are a source of regular irritation to us on the main roads in our area - especially the nocturnal offenders.
GRP wrote:
12 Feb 2020 10:49
I think irritation with motorbikes with non-compliant silencers transcends class boundaries
Don't recall Syd advising us he fits into that category.

Syd - do tell - what streets and in what borough(s) have had restrictions imposed - these changes require official Traffic Notices to be posted by the authorities involved.

And it won't be the first time that restrictions have been imposed that are not compliant with process and at the behest of a narrow section of the community by the result of their unsustainable complaints.

The driver of a compliant vehicle or rider of a compliant motorbike should not be subject to restrictions that are introduced for reasons that are not justifiable or sustainable.
Thank you I’m very quiet!!

There seems to be no benefit as cars and motorbikes can pass either side and I can dismount and walk my bike through. The new signs are at the junction of Greison and Garthone Road in Honor Oak. Any help getting this sorted for all road users will be greatly appreciated :D

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

GRP wrote:
12 Feb 2020 17:09
JGD wrote:
12 Feb 2020 11:33
Noisy vehicles, quads, motorbikes and whatever are a source of regular irritation to us on the main roads in our area - especially the nocturnal offenders.
GRP wrote:
12 Feb 2020 10:49
I think irritation with motorbikes with non-compliant silencers transcends class boundaries
Don't recall Syd advising us he fits into that category.
Possibly not, but it appears that a reasonable proportion of bikes make a lot of noise and I suspect that is what's led to this 'ban'. I don't live on a main road (side road perpendicular to busy main road and perhaps 30-40m from the junction) and the noise from bikes can still be quite irritating.

The bike community as a whole wants to look at the consequences of the lack of responsibility of the few; this is what ends up happening.
Bike community? Give me a break ffs.

The problem seems to be someone with contacts at the council or some who works in the council barged this through and I’m not the only motorbike user who will be affected. If there is a good reason fair enough but I want to know exactly what it is. My council tax paid for those signs

GRP
Posts: 9
Joined: 5 Feb 2020 13:27

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by GRP »

Bike community. Bikers. Whatever.

Pound to a pinch of sh*t that the people who live there have been getting irritated by illegally noisy bikes and now you're all banned.

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

GRP wrote:
12 Feb 2020 20:54
Bike community. Bikers. Whatever.

Pound to a pinch of sh*t that the people who live there have been getting irritated by illegally noisy bikes and now you're all banned.
Siri define prejudice

Prejudice
Prejudice is an affective feeling towards a person based on their perceived group membership.

broken_shaman
Posts: 110
Joined: 20 Nov 2013 21:08
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by broken_shaman »

On google maps, it looks as though the junction you have indicated is closed to traffic, probably to stop rat running, with a fire gate blocking the road. It appears to have been this way as far back as 2008, looking at streetview and the bollards have had blue 'bicycle only' signs on them since 2012 on streetview.

Perhaps they have had to put up the no motorcycles sign to reinforce the point, because motorcycle riders are ignoring the restriction? I would imagine the lack of appropriate, clear signage may have meant it wasn't enforceable either. Although it looks fairly obvious, due to the large gate across it.
Syd wrote:There seems to be no benefit as cars and motorbikes can pass either side
I'm not sure how cars would physically get around that though (as it is on streetview)

https://goo.gl/maps/Mi9xX65K7cczBaUz8

GRP
Posts: 9
Joined: 5 Feb 2020 13:27

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by GRP »

Yes, those roads have been closed off for years - I'm sure back in 2006 at which point I was still living not too far away. The "no motorbikes" signs seems more like clarification of what would always have been the intention. Gentrification had already started several years before that, if the area was ever 'authentically' South London to Syd's satisfaction.

JGD
Posts: 698
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by JGD »

broken_shaman wrote:
12 Feb 2020 23:17
Perhaps they have had to put up the no motorcycles sign to reinforce the point, because motorcycle riders are ignoring the restriction? I would imagine the lack of appropriate, clear signage may have meant it wasn't enforceable either. Although it looks fairly obvious, due to the large gate across it.
The position is probably pretty much as you describe it - including erecting the "No Motorcycles" sign and any reasons behind it.

If this is one of the restrictions syd is referring to it still remains the case that the borough is not empowered to unilaterally erect such a sign, irrespective of what complaints it may be receiving or any pressure it may feel it is under to do so.

The empowerment can only come from the publication of a properly constituted Traffic Management Order (I was wrongly referring to it as a Traffic Notice). This must be published in the press and there are three possibilities: it was in the original Traffic Management Order to restrict traffic flow, and they did not implement it in full; the borough published a new Traffic Management Order specifically to add this condition; the borough has not published a Traffic Management Order, erected the sign and the signs are thereby unlawful.

By law, boroughs are required to publish notices in a local newspaper which advertise proposed Traffic Management Order and any effects of the TMO's. This provides an opportunity for you to submit an objection or comment on a draft TMO proposal in writing. The TMO consultation period is usually 21 days after the publishing of the public notice.

You pays your money and takes your choice - but a search of the borough's web-site where a register of TMO's is usually maintained. the local press or The Gazette can be very illuminating as to what has been carried out in accordance with the protocols.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

So it turns out I’m the baddie. Those blue circles with a white 🚲 are not a suggestion!

I withdraw my accusations

Forgive

JGD
Posts: 698
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by JGD »

Maybe did not make the point clearly enough.

Perhaps the sign has been erected without authority and in itself is unlawful.

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

JGD wrote:
14 Feb 2020 21:39
Maybe did not make the point clearly enough.

Perhaps the sign has been erected without authority and in itself is unlawful.
Ahh ok I’ll contact the council for clarification

Cheers

JGD
Posts: 698
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by JGD »

If you plan to contact them, you are entitled to request which TMO covers the restriction and when and where it was published.

If they decline to answer, which they shouldn’t, you can always resort to an FOI request.

Good luck.
Last edited by JGD on 15 Feb 2020 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

GRP
Posts: 9
Joined: 5 Feb 2020 13:27

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by GRP »

Yes, good luck in finding an administrative loophole that allows you to continue using a motor vehicle along a street in which there is a clear intention not to allow motor vehicles

JGD
Posts: 698
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by JGD »

Interesting signage.

There are four "No Motor Vehicles"signs mounted on two standard posts circa 75mm (3 inches) in diameter and form two "gates", one "gate" facing onto Grierson Road only and the other contra-facing onto the junction of Honor Oak Park and Grierson Road. One "gate" defines where the restriction commences and the second where the restriction terminates.

Could this be interpreted therefore that the distance of the road where the "No Motor Vehicles" restriction lawfully applies is only 75mm (3 inches) in distance ie the thickness of the post upon which both sets of contra-facing signs are mounted and is also the total distance between the "gates".

There is no equivalent "gate" or signs for example on the junction of Riseldene Road and Grierson Road nor on the junction of Stondon Park and Riseldene Road.

It is self-evident that there is no intention to prevent vehicles exiting and entering and travelling along Grierson Road via Riseldene Road and other side roads and the existing signs are not intended to impose any such restriction. De-facto vehicles are present on all of those carriageways and appear to do so without restriction.

So what purpose do the signs that appear to impose a restriction of only 75mm in length on Grierson Road have ?

The lockable metal gate physically prevents four wheeled motor vehicles passing through that restriction that is 75mm in length and ergo stops rat-runners in cars. It can be un-locked to allow emergency and service vehicle access.

Is it intended to act as a restriction to prevent motor-cycle rat-runners ? When every other vehicle type can access the road via side roads albeit with no real benefits in terms of providing a short-cut ?

And perhaps the most important question is it competent in law? Are the signs in use appropriate? Could alternative signs be considered for example No Entry Except for Emergency and Service Vehicles. Does it comply with Lewisham policy ?

And is it appropriate ? What real problems are created by a few properly maintained and legal motor-cycles going to create on Grierson Road ?

Could a motor-cycle theoretically pass around the the posts outside the "gates" and never actually or physically enter the 75mm long restricted area ?

Neat little conundrum isn't it.

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

GRP wrote:
15 Feb 2020 20:08
Yes, good luck in finding an administrative loophole that allows you to continue using a motor vehicle along a street in which there is a clear intention not to allow motor vehicles
The point is I’m emitting more carbon especially at the traffic lights so I want to make sure the restriction is there for a good reason. To me it seems like overkill

syd
Posts: 282
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by syd »

JGD wrote:
15 Feb 2020 23:16
Interesting signage.

There are four "No Motor Vehicles"signs mounted on two standard posts circa 75mm (3 inches) in diameter and form two "gates", one "gate" facing onto Grierson Road only and the other contra-facing onto the junction of Honor Oak Park and Grierson Road. One "gate" defines where the restriction commences and the second where the restriction terminates.

Could this be interpreted therefore that the distance of the road where the "No Motor Vehicles" restriction lawfully applies is only 75mm (3 inches) in distance ie the thickness of the post upon which both sets of contra-facing signs are mounted and is also the total distance between the "gates".

There is no equivalent "gate" or signs for example on the junction of Riseldene Road and Grierson Road nor on the junction of Stondon Park and Riseldene Road.

It is self-evident that there is no intention to prevent vehicles exiting and entering and travelling along Grierson Road via Riseldene Road and other side roads and the existing signs are not intended to impose any such restriction. De-facto vehicles are present on all of those carriageways and appear to do so without restriction.

So what purpose do the signs that appear to impose a restriction of only 75mm in length on Grierson Road have ?

The lockable metal gate physically prevents four wheeled motor vehicles passing through that restriction that is 75mm in length and ergo stops rat-runners in cars. It can be un-locked to allow emergency and service vehicle access.

Is it intended to act as a restriction to prevent motor-cycle rat-runners ? When every other vehicle type can access the road via side roads albeit with no real benefits in terms of providing a short-cut ?

And perhaps the most important question is it competent in law? Are the signs in use appropriate? Could alternative signs be considered for example No Entry Except for Emergency and Service Vehicles. Does it comply with Lewisham policy ?

And is it appropriate ? What real problems are created by a few properly maintained and legal motor-cycles going to create on Grierson Road ?

Could a motor-cycle theoretically pass around the the posts outside the "gates" and never actually or physically enter the 75mm long restricted area ?

Neat little conundrum isn't it.
This will be interesting thanks for the info 👍

shadyduck
Posts: 2
Joined: 17 Feb 2020 18:42

Re: Gentrifiers

Post by shadyduck »

syd wrote:
11 Feb 2020 19:57
Hi all,

So my journey to work has now been disrupted as the route I took on my motorbike for the past 5 years now has no motorbike signs for no reason. There was never a problem until the cliched gentrifiers arrived who are miserable cause they cant afford Islington. Plantation shutters and washed bricks are a curse to sarf London
As a “cliche” gentrifier (who can, and does afford Islington) but have bought in Sydenham, why would you suggest that it’s those families who “aren’t from around here” are the issue? More
like bikers who flaunt rules if the road are only exclusive to SE London? Grow up.

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