Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

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Sydenham
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Sydenham »

The Faqs here suggest these are emergency temporary measures:

https://lewishamcovidresidentialstreets ... e.is/about

An excerpt:

Will the Council consider making these measures permanent?

It is recognised that there may be an appetite amongst communities for some of the measures that are being put in place on an emergency basis to be retained on a more permanent, non-emergency basis. As these measures help to facilitate walking and cycling, this would be in line with the Council’s longer term policy objectives. Subject to future funding guidance from TfL, it is currently anticipated that the traffic data and public feedback gathered during the period of the TTRN/TTO could be considered in determining whether to use the Experimental Traffic Order (ETO) process to explore the viability of the long-term or permanent introduction of these and other measures
mosy
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by mosy »

Thank you Sydenham. It seems to have been changed since public feedback "could be" considered is now "will be", and now forming part of a full statutory consultation. It does say that the ETO (presumably temporary measure) may be in force for 6-18 months.

"The data and public feedback gathered during the period of the TTO will be considered in deciding whether to run an extended trial through an Experimental Traffic Management Order (ETO). These ETOs would run for at least a further 6 months under the new traffic conditions that have been established after the lifting of the government restrictions, forming a statutory consultation period, during which time changes can be made to the scheme. The ETO may be in force for 6-18 months. Further data collection and consultation with residents would take place during this period to evaluate how the scheme has operated and if any of the measures should be made permanent. A formal decision will then be taken on this by the Council's Mayor & Cabinet."

I'm not sure if the voices of those peripheral to the location of an ETO measure would carry weight. Logically, those who enjoy calm would vote the temporary measure a success, presumably leaving naysayers suffering unintended consequences howling at the moon. But at least a full consultation period is now on the cards.

PS I note that the new wording is neutral, so either/or as to a scheme being permanent whereas the previous wording seemed to imply that a scheme would be kept unless TFL funding guidance (whatever that means) impinged on the decision.
Bragma1
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Bragma1 »

Ghlpc wrote: 12 Jun 2020 22:29
GLOBAL THINKER wrote: 12 Jun 2020 18:21 More effort should be spent making Sydenham Road more walker/bike friendly. Queensthorpe Road is already blocked off and has not benefited the residents of Sydenham other than the homeowners who already live within the conservation area and left a big square opposite the post office that is practically useless. How much did that cost? This seems like a push to extend the no entry roads around the Thorpes under the guise of "because of COVID19" What starts as temporary becomes permanent. An indication of costs involved would be a good place to start. If this scheme went ahead I would like to see a published definite beginning and end date. We need to ensure that funds are distributed evenly in Sydenham and not only benefit the few. How about zebra crossings outside primary schools for instance? Proper toilets in the parks?
I’m curious who decided that it should be these two roads and not a road adjoining a school for instance. I’m getting little tired of Lewisham Council pandering to the wealthier residents of Sydenham in this way. Sydenham station is an important gateway to the area, let’s improve the whole area and let everyone benefit. Clearly there are funds available, tell us what’s in the pot! Let all the residents of Sydenham decide how it should be spent.
100% agree.
I 100% agree as well, it does seem that Upper Sydenham (cobbs corner) is developed more than other areas and this road block is the start of a closed off Thorpe estate following the closure of Queensthorpe road. Traffic flow can be managed in other ways without road closures.

For example, how and why did Lewisham council allow St Philip Neri to be extended (ridiculous design) but not monitor the nearby Fairlawn Park road/ Winchfield road which is a rat run due inconsiderate drivers and vehicles. Surely with a school nearby this needs better consideration than the seemingly affluent members of the Thorpe's estate who seem to be driving the road blocks. It is ill thought out and we don’t need a “gated community” . Full access is required to the station inc improvement of the narrow alleyway. Using the covid 19 is a ridiculous and sneaky way to introduce the road block. Sydenham is for all, not the few 🙄

Fair development of the whole of Sydenham should be a roadmap. There is talk of Bell green development in the years ahead should the Bakerloo line be extended past Phase1 lewisham. So a considered blueprint approach should take place and not just pander to the residents of the Thorpe estate.

Where is the proven traffic study and the associated plans and info. Have they been properly communicated to ALL Sydenham residents for consideration??
mikej
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by mikej »

Changes such as this were urged on councils by TFL as an emergency measure as part of the Covid-19 crisis response - see the original post for more information. There was no time for any consultation. There will be time later on, and we'll have the chance to give our views then.
Ghlpc
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Ghlpc »

mikej wrote: 10 Jul 2020 07:14 Changes such as this were urged on councils by TFL as an emergency measure as part of the Covid-19 crisis response - see the original post for more information. There was no time for any consultation. There will be time later on, and we'll have the chance to give our views then.
This reminds me of my time working in a council department for a local London borough.

Frequent knee jerk reactions, rushed through and often ill thought. A 'spend it or lose it' scenario.

If its a response to Covid and social distancing, then focus on measures on the high street.

If its a response to 'rat runs', any true local could name you 20 or so residential roads more suitable than Silverdale and Bishopsthorpe.

Councilors should know their wards and the areas they represent.

Conveniently though, the roads chosen for closure is where they happen to reside.
Sydenham
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Sydenham »

The changes to Bishopsthorpe and Silverdale were envisaged and initial consultations made a long time before Covid. They were always going to be introduced this year for a trial period; plans had been made - seems that Covid has given a general umbrella coverage and additional rationale for these schemes including some new ones.

An example of a new scheme is Wells Park Road. Whilst there have been complaints about and issues with cars parking on the pavement for many years with no action Covid has enabled the council to act now and with speed (unusual for councils). Unlike Bishopsthorpe this scheme would not have appeared without Covid.
Sydenham Syd
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Sydenham Syd »

Ghlpc wrote: 10 Jul 2020 08:48
mikej wrote: 10 Jul 2020 07:14 Changes such as this were urged on councils by TFL as an emergency measure as part of the Covid-19 crisis response - see the original post for more information. There was no time for any consultation. There will be time later on, and we'll have the chance to give our views then.
This reminds me of my time working in a council department for a local London borough.

Frequent knee jerk reactions, rushed through and often ill thought. A 'spend it or lose it' scenario.

If its a response to Covid and social distancing, then focus on measures on the high street.

If its a response to 'rat runs', any true local could name you 20 or so residential roads more suitable than Silverdale and Bishopsthorpe.

Councilors should know their wards and the areas they represent.

Conveniently though, the roads chosen for closure is where they happen to reside.
Which councillors live in this area btw? Seems odd that they haven’t been asked directly for the rationale, yet plenty of people have come on here to say that the reason this has been pushed through is because they live in the area.

Is that actually the case?, or just a bit of sour grapes.

I live further down the high st and KPR and Hillmore Grove are used as a rat run to avoid the lights at Kent House Rd. I don’t mind it, but I think speed bumps or those half islands down the street would be enough to at least stop people charging down there. Surely making those roads slower is the answer rather than just pulling the drawbridge up.
owlwise
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by owlwise »

Cllr Chris Best lives round there.
sparticus
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by sparticus »

I live on a road in the Thorpes. In my road there a number of owner-occupied houses, quite a lot of flat conversions, some of which are tenanted, some owner-occupied; and a surprising number of houses maintained by by Lewisham council presumably either owned or leased and sub-let. In other words, the usual mix of tenures your find in many neighbourhoods in London, including elsewhere in Sydenham. Hardly the concentration of bloated plutocrats imagined by some on this forum. If people have evidence that Lewisham council is susceptible to the lobbying of “wealthy” residents in the Thorpes, then please produce it. In the case of Cllr. Best, I believe she lives near the Mayow Road end, so if anything she will experience increased traffic from traffic displaced from Silverdale.
Sydenham Syd
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Sydenham Syd »

owlwise wrote: 10 Jul 2020 16:11 Cllr Chris Best lives round there.
So the suggestion is that Cllr Best has lobbied for this?
Or do other cllrs live there too?

Seems the location of Cllr Best’s house would be irrelevant given she lives on the periphery by Mayow, and in fact detrimental.
Ghlpc
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Ghlpc »

sparticus wrote: 10 Jul 2020 17:17 I live on a road in the Thorpes. In my road there a number of owner-occupied houses, quite a lot of flat conversions, some of which are tenanted, some owner-occupied; and a surprising number of houses maintained by by Lewisham council presumably either owned or leased and sub-let. In other words, the usual mix of tenures your find in many neighbourhoods in London, including elsewhere in Sydenham. Hardly the concentration of bloated plutocrats imagined by some on this forum. If people have evidence that Lewisham council is susceptible to the lobbying of “wealthy” residents in the Thorpes, then please produce it. In the case of Cllr. Best, I believe she lives on a corner plot on Mayow Road, so if anything she will experience increased traffic from traffic displaced from Silverdale.
The thorpes is not your usual mix of tenures, please dont pretend otherwise.

My point is, when you see the criteria and justification for these measures (which i don't agree with btw but that's another argument) there are many more roads in the area that would benefit.

So the logical conclusion is to consider how and why Bishopsthorpe road was selected. So when more than one councillor live within the thorpes, then what do you expect people to think?
Sydenham Syd
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Sydenham Syd »

But which other councillor(s) are you talking about? You say others live there. So who?
Ghlpc
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Joined: 2 Aug 2013 14:02

Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Ghlpc »

And one more thing.

Where is our 'voice of the neighbourhood'...The Sydenham Society?

Very surprised they haven't made any comments about this, for or against, unless I've missed something?
Sydenham Syd
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Sydenham Syd »

Ghlpc wrote: 10 Jul 2020 20:13 And one more thing.

Where is our 'voice of the neighbourhood'...The Sydenham Society?

Very surprised they haven't made any comments about this, for or against, unless I've missed something?
Are you going to name the councillor(s) you say live there?
mosy
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by mosy »

Surely the fact is that it is done now and the temporary measure could be there for 6-18 mths during full consultation. As the chances of getting the measure reversed overnight must be nil to zero, maybe time would be better spent collecting evidence and formulating an objection or alternative submission as thought preferable or more warranted.
Chris Best
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Chris Best »

I thought I would answer the point on where local councillors live and my position on the temporary road closures. I live in Bishopsthorpe Road. That is being considered by some that I have a conflict of interest in these closures. The other Cllr is Liam Curran who lives in Bellingham ward and Top Copley resigned in March and previously lived in Catford. With the cancellation of the Mayoral and GLA elections we are not expecting a by-election in the near future. I have asked Liam to manage any casework on these closures because of my interest.

Before the temporary road closures were put in place I raised concerns with the management of the Tranposrt for London “SCOOT” system on Sydenham Road. This system is monitored by TfL and is designed to adjust traffic signal settings to reduce delays. Since the installation of the SCOOT system I have questioned the traffic flow along Sydenham Road as the congestion is one reason for the rat running along Silverdale, Bishopsthorpe, Burghill and Champion Road. The officers are convinced that the installation of the planters at the top of Bishopsthorpe and near the top of Silverdale are the answer to stop the rat running and encourage the use of cycles as well as walking to the high street. I still have concerns with this view and await the outcome of the monitoring of the traffic flow. I have raised the point about the air pollution in the high street caused by the idling of the traffic due to the congestion. I have observed that turning from Mayow Road onto Sydenham Road is slow and there have been tailbacks along Mayow Road to the vets.

As others have said there will be a full consultation on whether these will be made permanent as well the requests for a Controlled Parking Zone in Sydenham. We were going to receive a presentation at the March Assecbly meeting on traffic management but this was cancelled because of the pandemic. At the moment the Council is still focussing on critical services as the shielding of some 12,000 residents operates until the end of July.
JGD
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by JGD »

Chris Best wrote: 17 Jul 2020 08:01 The officers are convinced that the installation of the planters at the top of Bishopsthorpe and near the top of Silverdale are the answer to stop the rat running and encourage the use of cycles as well as walking to the high street. I still have concerns with this view and await the outcome of the monitoring of the traffic flow. I have raised the point about the air pollution in the high street caused by the idling of the traffic due to the congestion. I have observed that turning from Mayow Road onto Sydenham Road is slow and there have been tailbacks along Mayow Road to the vets.
The tailbacks reported here have been observable over a period of years. The traffic-flow out of Mayow Road onto Sydenham Road at the traffic lights there has always been slow and fragmented. The light sequence has never been long. The problem is compounded by the fact that traffic flows up Sydenham Road are frequently tailed back down to the traffic lights thus restricting the number of vehicles who can turn right to exit Mayow Road.

Has the position worsened and are the tailbacks on Mayow Road more frequent?

If so, is there observation evidence available that compares the before and after position?

Are the modified SCOOT provisions the root cause ?

Or is it the case that Sydenham Road congestion when it occurs will always cause tailbacks on Mayow Road.

Traffic officers may possibly have examined all of these factors in the full and information may be available - perhaps it would help if this data was published.
f4monty
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by f4monty »

Has the council removed the barrier on Silverdale? Cars were merrily driving through it today...
Tykesthorpe
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Tykesthorpe »

Unless the council remove the barriers in the middle of the night (as the one on Bishopsthorpe disappeared between 11pm and midnight), I think that might be the work of someone not linked to the council with the right key to put the bollards down.
Westwood Hoi Polloi
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Re: Consultation on Proposal to Close Silverdale/Bishopsthorpe Road to traffic

Post by Westwood Hoi Polloi »

I live on Westwood Hill and this is already having an effect on my quality of life - and this is with the reduced traffic we are currently experiencing due to less school & commuter trips. I truely fear for when things get back to "normal" if this is still in place.

The flow has always been slow down to the roundabout with traffic typically building up between 4pm & 7pm (plus the obvious morning rush hour) Now it starts even earlier in the afternoon, meaning we are subjected to more vehicles slowly idling down the hill (which is a real delight if they have their stereos blasting or sounding their horns with frustration!)

This will definately get worse when the weather deteriorates as less people will cycle/walk and when all schools/business is back as it was.

Meanwhile the Thorpes "enclave" will be quiet and virtually pollution free. Can already see the estate agent's blurb for these million pound plus properties - "set in a quiet cul-de-sac closed to through traffic......." (but should actually read "only accessible by foot or bike due to the gridlock caused by poor council decisions)
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