Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

The place for serious discussion, announcements and breaking news about Sydenham
JRW
Posts: 475
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JRW »

If you go to SE26.life, you will see the draft Constitution, showing the absolutely democratic rules laid down by statute. A Neighbourhood Forum has to follow the rules, or its Neighbourhood Plan won't be subject to the final democratic vote.

Of course, you won't get to experience this, as you live too far from the area.
Growsydenham
Posts: 123
Joined: 27 Jan 2018 09:23
Location: sydenham

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by Growsydenham »

Can I suggest the name "forum" is a bit of a misnomer? It implies that a place where local interested people meet and have their voices heard. It sounds more like a closed society.

From the constitution: a committee of six to twelve people is elected once a year at an AGM. Candidates will need to have attended two committee meetings previously to be eligible to become members of that committee. That committee then elects amongst itself a chair and officers. (Only people who have been on the committee for a year can become officers). That committee will then meet "direct and oversee" the work of the BGNF, meeting at least once a quarter. That includes tasks such as commenting on planning, new retail, traffic measures, etc.

From the constitution, there is no mechanism by which general local people can have any say over the decisions of this committee, other than by attending the AGM once a year. If, therefore, the committee decides to say campaign to in favour of such-and-such a development, that is their decision alone without having to consult with the wider community. Correct?
JRW
Posts: 475
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JRW »

TODAY!!
If you want to talk about the Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum, come and join us at the front of the Livesey 2 - 3 pm. Find out more details, and question the draft boundaries before the next meeting:

25th September,
12 - 2pm Catholic Club,
Watlington Grove (behind the Istambul supermarket).
Growsydenham
Posts: 123
Joined: 27 Jan 2018 09:23
Location: sydenham

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by Growsydenham »

Can you explain how decision-making will work, and whether it is indeed the case that policy for the whole "forum" can be made by votes of a committee of as few as six people, as the constitution suggests?
JRW
Posts: 475
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JRW »

Firstly, are you actually within the draft boundary? Are you going to join the forum, or are you just trolling everything I post, as usual?
JGD
Posts: 1141
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup - that's Bellingham Ward, includes Bell Green and is distinct from Sydenham)..
Contact:

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 29 Aug 2021 23:48 If you go to SE26.life, you will see the draft Constitution, showing the absolutely democratic rules laid down by statute. A Neighbourhood Forum has to follow the rules, or its Neighbourhood Plan won't be subject to the final democratic vote.

Of course, you won't get to experience this, as you live too far from the area.
Despite repeated requests Julia Webb. aka JRW and @SGasworks on Twitter. has declined to identify who are the drafters and preparers of proposals and the constitution she posts on another site.

Neither this site nor SE26 dot life is used by significant numbers residents of Bellingham. As has been the case for all of SydSoc's failed efforts in the last three years, no effort is being made to communicate with the body of residents who should have their voice heard over all others. Residents are already questioning about the use of these off-patch forums and also question why the only other media-stream being used is Twitter.

Julia and her anonymised co-drafters are proposing a redefinition of borders that add portions of Lower Sydenham.

The realignment seeks to exclude a major portion of Bellingham Ward without a rationale to explain why.

The un-warranted realignment was expressly rejected at the meeting and a counter-proposal was made that any boundary must be based upon the original Bellingham ward boundaries with only such additions where specific locations were directly (as opposed to indirectly) impacted by any proposals. This does NOT include any of the areas proposed by Julia's group.

This proposal was rejected by Bellingham residents at the last meeting and once more without explanation that matter and other proposals expressed clearly at the meeting have not been added to Julia's subsequent publications. Publications and subsequent updates only reflect Julia and her group's views and specifically render other expressed views as being nulled and silenced.

No notes of the meeting have been published by those who conducted the meeting and many questions arise as to why this has not happened.

As you might expect discussions with elected members and Bellingham residents have resulted in major dissatisfaction emerging about this one-sided and frankly mis-leading behaviour and activity with such evident and skewed bias.

So Growsydenham your concerns are well founded and the questions you pose are substantive.

I do not know where you live - it may be that Julia has sought to exclude the area in which you reside. It is not a surprise that Julia instigates a personalised attack upon you. There is an inevitability about Julia following her normal pattern of behaviour in doing so. It can be anticipated that this post will trigger another unwarranted attack on me.

The conduct of such dialogue and consultation, at a minimum, needs to address Bellingham residents' needs and record outcomes from that body of views.

That is evidently not happening for the meantime.

An independent source of information that reflects and captures and reports on Bellingham's views has become essential. A growing body of Bellingham residents hold that view.

The need has been identified for the creation of such an entity that can act with integrity and completeness.

Having identified it - it must happen and will.

Please contact me directly at jgdoherty@btinternet.com if you are interested - at any level.
syd
Posts: 384
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by syd »

Hey can someone tell me how to get rid of the tyre mountain at Sydenham tyres?
Sideofham
Posts: 44
Joined: 10 May 2017 05:50
Location: Kirkdale village
Contact:

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by Sideofham »

syd wrote: 15 Sep 2021 15:48 Hey can someone tell me how to get rid of the tyre mountain at Sydenham tyres?
As a member of the Friends of Sydenham Tyres Tyre Mountain (trying saying that after a few) I say hands off, it's the only man made structure in Sydenham that can be seen from outer space.
JRW
Posts: 475
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JRW »

:!: !! URGENT !!! :!:

Help needed to leaflet all the homes in the BGNF area, to make sure that everybody knows about the meeting on Saturday 25th September. At the moment, the leaflet delivery team consists of just me and Cllr Liam Curran, so some people will have very little notice before the meeting.

:!: Perry Vale ward :!: and
:!: Bellingham ward :!: areas apparently have no amenity societies or online community forums, and councillors haven't told their voters about the BGNF. We particularly need volunteers to leaflet these areas.

:!: JGD :!: i know how strongly you feel about ensuring Bellingham representation. Can you join the team, please?
:!: If you live on an estate, and could get posters up on community noticeboards in your block, we would be thrilled to hear from you.
:!: If you have access to a community noticeboard, local forum, or super social media skills, we'd be thrilled to have you on board.

Basically, we need the community to come together and help with publicity. Nobody can be left out of the loop, but that means we are counting on you to help out.
JGD
Posts: 1141
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup - that's Bellingham Ward, includes Bell Green and is distinct from Sydenham)..
Contact:

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 16 Sep 2021 07:44 Bellingham ward areas apparently have no amenity societies or online community forums, and councillors haven't told their voters about the BGNF. We particularly need volunteers to leaflet these areas.

JGD i know how strongly you feel about ensuring Bellingham representation. Can you join the team, please?
Julia thank you for the offer.

My position is this.

Please respond to the request to publish who is engaged in formulating and drafting the one-sided proposals that you continue to publish and adopt a publication and communication strategy that is genuinely open and transparent and accessible, in terms of contribution, to all participants.

Please amend your practice of publishing ONLY your own group's proposals whilst declining to publish proposals made validly by residents who are not members of your group at meetings about setting up a constituted body.

Please publish the alternative proposal made at our last meeting for a body that has at its heart the existing area defined by the Bellingham Ward boundary plus a limited number of areas directly affected by what happens at Bell Green. For clarity your published proposal laid out in a cross-ward format were and remain expressly rejected.

Please publish the complete list of proposals made at our last Zoom meeting including those proffered by people outside your group.

The draft constitution you publish is not suited for a Bellingham Neighbourhood Forum and has not been discussed at any meeting, ad-hoc or formal, not been debated nor amended to address its unacceptability.

The preliminary group meetings were intended to discuss what body should be created and how that body would be established and constituted. Whilst Cllr Curran pleads "some misunderstanding" on that point, it remains the case that no such dialogue has been conducted. You however publish proposals as if dialogue has been completed.

There is evident need for the creation of a medium that presents a complete, balanced and representative views of Bellingham Residents expressed and collated freely, accessible to all and without the pre-conditioned bias of your anonymous and unrepresentative group being overlaid upon it.

Please publish details of the origins of the funding being used for drafting the detailed graphics you use and similarly for the publication/printing of the leaflets you plan to circulate in the way you describe. Who is endorsing and drafting the contents of these leaflets?

Given that it is unlikely you can deliver on these needs or answer these valid questions and so far have failed - or declined to do so, you might understand why I am unable to accede to your request.

You should anticipate that refreshed efforts will instead focus on addressing how the principles of a good neighbourhood forum can be established and constituted within geographic boundaries defined by those residents who need there voices to be heard above all external influences and who do not have a Civic Amenity Society or an electronic media stream at their disposal.
JRW
Posts: 475
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JRW »

Dear John,

As it was made clear to you in the meeting, this is not, and never has been, to set up a Bellingham NF. It was always about a forum involving sections of three wards, as encouraged by the Mayor. Jacq Paschoud specifically stressed that point at the meeting. You are quite entitled to organise a Bellingham Neighbourhood Forum, but you haven't got around to it. You can start now, and apply Why not? As it is, it's like joining a tennis club and complaining that this isn't the way to run a rugby club.

You have had every chance to start a Bellingham Neighbourhood Forum yourself , but aren't interested in doing that. Because of your exhausting objections putting people off getting involved, the BGNF has had a two year hiatus, which has put the Neighbourhood Plan back 10 years. We have missed the Lewisham Plan, and the London Plan, so will have to wait for the next cycle of adoptions. Congrats.

Why didn't you take the opportunity to start a Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum yourself in the meantime? I'm moving it forward because nobody else has, and i think that the Bell Green pedestrian experience is appalling. If you have a better structure, then make a constructive proposal. The constitution draft is copied from the Grove Park constitution, and expresses what is required by law. If you don't like the law, then I'm not the person to get cross with.

The forum will have space for absolutely everybody who wants to be involved, the chance to attend meetings. The minimum voting quorum is to allow for boring admin to continue even when the topic is so tedious that nobody else is going to turn up for a meeting. Meetings can be as frequent as members wish.

You are doing your best to stop the forum attracting members, as they can't face aggro at meetings. The only reason councillors have approached you personally about the forum is that you have repeatedly disrupted proceedings, complaining that we're not starting a Bellingham ward forum. If you want one, you can start one. We'll get on with doing the BGNF. Like I said, don't join a tennis club in hope of following rugby matches.
Sideofham
Posts: 44
Joined: 10 May 2017 05:50
Location: Kirkdale village
Contact:

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by Sideofham »

Let's stop all the bickering and infighting, I'm sure given time normal people and those from Bellingham can all just work together.

Although obviously being more industrious and smarter the Sydenham folk will do the vast majority of the leg work but let's not quibble about semantics until later.
JGD
Posts: 1141
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup - that's Bellingham Ward, includes Bell Green and is distinct from Sydenham)..
Contact:

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JGD »

JRW wrote: 16 Sep 2021 14:32 As it was made clear to you in the meeting, this is not, and never has been, to set up a Bellingham NF. It was always about a forum involving sections of three wards, as encouraged by the Mayor. Jacq Paschoud specifically stressed that point at the meeting. You are quite entitled to organise a Bellingham Neighbourhood Forum, but you haven't got around to it. You can start now, and apply Why not? As it is, it's like joining a tennis club and complaining that this isn't the way to run a rugby club.

You have had every chance to start a Bellingham Neighbourhood Forum yourself , but aren't interested in doing that. Because of your exhausting objections putting people off getting involved, the BGNF has had a two year hiatus, which has put the Neighbourhood Plan back 10 years. We have missed the Lewisham Plan, and the London Plan, so will have to wait for the next cycle of adoptions. Congrats.

Why didn't you take the opportunity to start a Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum yourself in the meantime? I'm moving it forward because nobody else has, and i think that the Bell Green pedestrian experience is appalling. If you have a better structure, then make a constructive proposal. The constitution draft is copied from the Grove Park constitution, and expresses what is required by law. If you don't like the law, then I'm not the person to get cross with.
Interesting viewpoint Julia.

You seem to vest more influence in my activities than seems logical or indeed accurate in any way.

There are material inaccuracies in a lot of your commentary - but that is a norm for you.

Interesting that you deploy the "it was made clear to you..." ploy. It should be recalled that the formation of any body is at the preliminary stages - no single view or voice has any overwhelming power that dictates the direction of travel. That is for the body itself to determine both as it forms and once it is constituted.

I do not recall Cllr Jacq Paschoud expressing the view you postulate but then you have failed to publish any notes of the meeting and can selectively make inaccurate statements that you feel will not be challenged. I will Leave Cllr Jacq to comment on your remarks should she elect to do so.

How do you calculate that somehow there has been delay that "put the Neighbourhood Plan back 10 years". Did you fail to respond to the calls for responses to the Local Plan Consultation? The London Plan was implemented during the consultation phase for the Local Plan and I cannot recall there being much local debate around that.

Some of us put many hours into the consultation phase for the Local Plan and prepared and made very fulsome responses in some detail.

The formation of what you describe as "BGNF" being in a hiatus was in fact a three year period in which SydSoc and then you made several failed appeals to Bellingham Ward residents to join with you in the formation of a body. This met with virtually zero response from those same residents.

This meant that the body could not be constituted as it did not meet the requirements laid out by Lewisham Council for the specified minimum number of residents of the Bellingham Ward agreeing to become members or join in the campaign. This failure to attract residents is significant and may be important in bringing an understanding to why we see a revised and enlarged area being proposed. By expanding the area, it enhances the possibility of attracting residents and business from outside Bellingham and thereby meeting the qualification requirements laid out by Lewisham.

I don't recall any discussions at our only meeting about the formation of either a rugby club or a tennis club.

Any forms of failure lie with the organisation and people who tried to run the campaign - not with anyone who opposed it. The campaign of course was severely hampered by the misguided attempts to place the retention of the now demolished Gas Holders at its core. SydSoc's resources would have been better deployed had they been used to address the OLSPN fiasco at an earlier, more appropriate stage. But hey-ho we all learn from mistakes.

It is noted that you have NOT answered some now longstanding enquiries in any meaningful way and have instead elected to ignore the requests and formulate some fairly inaccurate suppositions about the roles of others in a very misleading way.
syd
Posts: 384
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 18:30
Location: lower sydenham

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by syd »

Sideofham wrote: 15 Sep 2021 20:36
syd wrote: 15 Sep 2021 15:48 Hey can someone tell me how to get rid of the tyre mountain at Sydenham tyres?
As a member of the Friends of Sydenham Tyres Tyre Mountain (trying saying that after a few) I say hands off, it's the only man made structure in Sydenham that can be seen from outer space.
:D
It’s like a 1970’s rag and bone yard but if I left my bins out id get a fine. Something very strange going on but ill file a complaint every week until its gone.
JRW
Posts: 475
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 15:01

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JRW »

Call for volunteers to leaflet homes across the draft forum area this weekend. At the moment, its just me, Alan, Liam and Annabel. Help! Make sure that everyone gets to hear about the meeting - Sat 25th September, 12 - 2 pm at the Catholic Club. Six sectors, across Bellingham, Perry Vale, and Sydenham wards.
JGD
Posts: 1141
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup - that's Bellingham Ward, includes Bell Green and is distinct from Sydenham)..
Contact:

Re: Bell Green Neighbourhood Forum proposals...

Post by JGD »

An announcement of a new website launched to support the setting up of a Bellingham Ward body.

https://bell-green.org/

Views from within the Bellingham Ward expressed with detail, honesty, transparency and integrity.

It unambiguously supports the setting up a body for Bellingham Ward that embraces Bell Green and which will represent the views of Bellingham Ward residents and businesses from within the Ward.

My email details are in it - feel free to make contact.
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