London mayor Boris Johnson has said he is considering plans to extend the Bakerloo tube line as far as Lewisham.
Johnson made the comments at today’s mayor’s question time. Asked about the extension Johnson said: “I have ambitions in that direction,” adding that work was already underway to look at...
http://www.regen.net/news/884153/Johnso ... -extension
(Unfortunately, I can't read anymore as you need to subscribe...).
***Surely this is a pipe-dream - but if it were to be extended to Lewisham, what would be the likely route? Any chance at all that it could come through Forest Hill or Syd?
Bakerloo extension?
Mr. James Dickens asked the Minister of Transport if it is proposed to commence the extension of the Bakerloo tube line to Bromley, via Lewisham, before 1970.
Mr. Swingler In London Transport's view a lengthy extension of the Bakerloo line is unlikely to be practicable. The case for a shorter extension is among the possibilities being tested in the London Transportation Study.
>>>>>>>> From Hansard 22 June 1966 - so don't hold your breath!
Route? Possibly Elephant - Walworth - Camberwell - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley - Lewisham, then all stations to Hayes. This and other routes are speculated here: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive ... 00439.html
You might also wish to checkout: http://brockleycentral.blogspot.com/200 ... ition.html
Admin
Mr. Swingler In London Transport's view a lengthy extension of the Bakerloo line is unlikely to be practicable. The case for a shorter extension is among the possibilities being tested in the London Transportation Study.
>>>>>>>> From Hansard 22 June 1966 - so don't hold your breath!
Route? Possibly Elephant - Walworth - Camberwell - Denmark Hill - Peckham Rye - Nunhead - Brockley - Lewisham, then all stations to Hayes. This and other routes are speculated here: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive ... 00439.html
You might also wish to checkout: http://brockleycentral.blogspot.com/200 ... ition.html
Admin
Gaz- I don't think this is just a pipe dream.
The Department of Transport are looking at a number of strategic schemes nationwide and this is one that could be achieved comparatively easily and comparatively cheaply.
Lewisham Council have put the outline of a plan to the Mayor/TfL which would mean that the extension would come through Catford/Catford Bridge and go along the existing line to Hayes. There have already been some rough estimates of the cost of moving Lower Sydenham station across Southend Lane to the rear of the Savacentre as part of the scheme.
Genuine talks are going on. So who knows, both ends of Sydenham may be connected to the tube before long!
The Department of Transport are looking at a number of strategic schemes nationwide and this is one that could be achieved comparatively easily and comparatively cheaply.
Lewisham Council have put the outline of a plan to the Mayor/TfL which would mean that the extension would come through Catford/Catford Bridge and go along the existing line to Hayes. There have already been some rough estimates of the cost of moving Lower Sydenham station across Southend Lane to the rear of the Savacentre as part of the scheme.
Genuine talks are going on. So who knows, both ends of Sydenham may be connected to the tube before long!
It would certainly be an exciting (and of course, welcome) benefit to SE London - esp if it joined with our branch of the ELL at some point.
As an aside, I also saw mention in the links that Admin provided, that a DLR extension to Catford is also being mooted. I don't understand why this is not being seen as a feasible option as over on the Isle of Dogs the DLR track is mainly up on 'stilts' - surely this would get around any problem of the congested road layouts?
As an aside, I also saw mention in the links that Admin provided, that a DLR extension to Catford is also being mooted. I don't understand why this is not being seen as a feasible option as over on the Isle of Dogs the DLR track is mainly up on 'stilts' - surely this would get around any problem of the congested road layouts?
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
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- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
Re: Bakerloo extension?
The article continues:Gaz wrote:London mayor Boris Johnson has said he is considering plans to extend the Bakerloo tube line as far as Lewisham.
Johnson made the comments at today’s mayor’s question time. Asked about the extension Johnson said: “I have ambitions in that direction,” adding that work was already underway to look at...
http://www.regen.net/news/884153/Johnso ... -extension
(Unfortunately, I can't read anymore as you need to subscribe...).
It then goes on to summarise comments by the Mayor on minimum space standards for new residential development....the viability of the scheme.
Personally I think the shelved Cross River Tram scheme (see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/project ... /2043.aspx and http://www.crossriverpartnership.org/do ... 236&id=586) would have far more benefit than a Bakerloo line extension - almost certainly cheaper to build and would relieve pressure on Tube lines in central London, as well as providing new, improved links in south London.
The estimated cost of building such a tram system is £1.3bn. I love trams but imposing a tram system on existing inner city London suburbs and sensitive areas of central London would be a total nightmare. (Just look at the huge fuss kicked up by locals about using Peckham Town Centre as a tram depot as part of this scheme to see the problems it would be to implement such a scheme).
Luckily, this proposal has been shelved.
Far better to use existing (or former) railway tracks and rail stations (as has happened on the new ELL and could happen on the proposed Bakerloo extension). Less environmentally intrusive and much more cost effective.
Luckily, this proposal has been shelved.
Far better to use existing (or former) railway tracks and rail stations (as has happened on the new ELL and could happen on the proposed Bakerloo extension). Less environmentally intrusive and much more cost effective.
indeed, but what about congestion implications? South London rail-routes are already extremely congested aren't they?nasaroc wrote:Far better to use existing (or former) railway tracks and rail stations (as has happened on the new ELL and could happen on the proposed Bakerloo extension). Less environmentally intrusive and much more cost effective.
I can't find anything definite about specific routes or stopping patterns.Thomas wrote:In the meantime, could someone clarify what is happening with Thameslink? My understanding was that it will be coming to Catford and might well be coming to Sydenham by 2015: is that right?
Unless the new East London Line (due to become part of the London Overground network operated by TfL) becomes part of the Thameslink lines, I can't see how any extra Thameslink trains can fit around the predicted frequency of ELL trains - in short I don't see ELL and Thameslink services both calling at Sydenham. Most likely, you'll have to change at East Croydon for Thameslink 2000 services, as you have to for First Capital Connect services at the moment.
Yes - Thameslink is coming to Sydenham.
The South London Rail Utilisation Strategy (a big name for a document that plans future rail routes and timetables in this part of London) sets out this scheme.
When the Thameslink is refurbished (2015 hopefully) some of the trains currently going along our line to London Bridge won't terminate at LB but will continue along the Thameslink line to north London. The RUS says it will be 4 trains per hour out of the peak six trains. Frankly if only two trains per hour do this it will be a huge gain.
One important thing to realise about this is that "our" Thameslink trains won't terminate at Luton/Bedford in the north and Brighton in the south. If they did, these trains would be so packed with commuters that we simply wouldn't be able to get onto them. To avoid this it is planned to terminate these trains in north London along the Thameslink line. With a train every few minutes running along the central urban section of the rebuilt Thameslink it will be easy to get off a train and wait for another to take you further north if you want.
On another issue - here's a startling piece of news from TfL.
Currently, 1.5m passengers a year go into or leave Sydenham Station. Within a year of the new ELL opening, TfL estimate that the number of passengers will increase fivefold. In other words, within a couple of years 6m passengers will be using Sydenham Station annually!
The South London Rail Utilisation Strategy (a big name for a document that plans future rail routes and timetables in this part of London) sets out this scheme.
When the Thameslink is refurbished (2015 hopefully) some of the trains currently going along our line to London Bridge won't terminate at LB but will continue along the Thameslink line to north London. The RUS says it will be 4 trains per hour out of the peak six trains. Frankly if only two trains per hour do this it will be a huge gain.
One important thing to realise about this is that "our" Thameslink trains won't terminate at Luton/Bedford in the north and Brighton in the south. If they did, these trains would be so packed with commuters that we simply wouldn't be able to get onto them. To avoid this it is planned to terminate these trains in north London along the Thameslink line. With a train every few minutes running along the central urban section of the rebuilt Thameslink it will be easy to get off a train and wait for another to take you further north if you want.
On another issue - here's a startling piece of news from TfL.
Currently, 1.5m passengers a year go into or leave Sydenham Station. Within a year of the new ELL opening, TfL estimate that the number of passengers will increase fivefold. In other words, within a couple of years 6m passengers will be using Sydenham Station annually!
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Bakerloo extension?
<<On another issue - here's a startling piece of news from TfL.
Currently, 1.5m passengers a year go into or leave Sydenham Station. Within a year of the new ELL opening, TfL estimate that the number of passengers will increase fivefold. In other words, within a couple of years 6m passengers will be using Sydenham Station annually!>>
Yes, I was surprised to hear this figure when it was mentioned in the discussion of Sydenham Road redevelopment at the Mayor and Cabinet meeting on Wednesday (about which, incidentally, I am surprised not to see any subsequent discussion under the appropriate thread in this forum. Is everyone deliriously happy with the decision to go ahead?)
Has anyone an explanation of why this startling increase is expected? Are there any corresponding estimates for FH station?
Currently, 1.5m passengers a year go into or leave Sydenham Station. Within a year of the new ELL opening, TfL estimate that the number of passengers will increase fivefold. In other words, within a couple of years 6m passengers will be using Sydenham Station annually!>>
Yes, I was surprised to hear this figure when it was mentioned in the discussion of Sydenham Road redevelopment at the Mayor and Cabinet meeting on Wednesday (about which, incidentally, I am surprised not to see any subsequent discussion under the appropriate thread in this forum. Is everyone deliriously happy with the decision to go ahead?)
Has anyone an explanation of why this startling increase is expected? Are there any corresponding estimates for FH station?
a coffee shop on the up platform might do well!nasaroc wrote: Currently, 1.5m passengers a year go into or leave Sydenham Station. Within a year of the new ELL opening, TfL estimate that the number of passengers will increase fivefold. In other words, within a couple of years 6m passengers will be using Sydenham Station annually!
Completely agree. It seems that soon FH & Syd will be far more integrated into the London network than ever before. Now if only we had a bus/nightbus that ran to LB and Fenchurch St..!nasaroc wrote:When the Thameslink is refurbished (2015 hopefully) some of the trains currently going along our line to London Bridge won't terminate at LB but will continue along the Thameslink line to north London. The RUS says it will be 4 trains per hour out of the peak six trains. Frankly if only two trains per hour do this it will be a huge gain.
However, two negative aspects to the ELL & Thameslink improvements are that there is not enough capacity to allow for the current fast service (Syd-FH-LB only) to be retained and that (it looks like) there will be no direct Waterloo/Charing Cross service.
There probably wasn't a discussion on this forum because very few people were aware of it. I can't see anything relating to this meeting on the Lewisham Council website.Yes, I was surprised to hear this figure when it was mentioned in the discussion of Sydenham Road redevelopment at the Mayor and Cabinet meeting on Wednesday (about which, incidentally, I am surprised not to see any subsequent discussion under the appropriate thread in this forum. Is everyone deliriously happy with the decision to go ahead?)
I too wonder where this 6m figure comes from?
Thanks for the update Nasaroc.
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catscratch
- Posts: 83
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- Location: se20
6 million passengers using the station?
6 million divided by 352 = 17,045 per day
for a 24hr day thats 710 per hour/ 11 per minute
for a 12 hr day thats 1420 people per hour/22 per minute crowding onto the platform.
predictive accounting from the Royal bank of Scotland it seems
that'll be two coffee shops needed then
6 million divided by 352 = 17,045 per day
for a 24hr day thats 710 per hour/ 11 per minute
for a 12 hr day thats 1420 people per hour/22 per minute crowding onto the platform.
predictive accounting from the Royal bank of Scotland it seems
that'll be two coffee shops needed then
I'm finding out the basis on which TfL makes this prediction.
Exact comparisons are hard to come by. But if you take stations in suburban London which have an overground and an underground line, these future figures are a trifle high but maybe not surprising. For example, Balham has 5.4m passengers annually; Tottenham Hale 3.3m.
Even if the current figures using Sydenham double or treble, this will have significant consquences for station facilities, station access, local parking etc
Previous experiences with the introduction of new tube and overground lines is that passengers numbers increase very rapidly and that the system gets back to being overcrowded very rapidly.
Exact comparisons are hard to come by. But if you take stations in suburban London which have an overground and an underground line, these future figures are a trifle high but maybe not surprising. For example, Balham has 5.4m passengers annually; Tottenham Hale 3.3m.
Even if the current figures using Sydenham double or treble, this will have significant consquences for station facilities, station access, local parking etc
Previous experiences with the introduction of new tube and overground lines is that passengers numbers increase very rapidly and that the system gets back to being overcrowded very rapidly.
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Bovine Juice
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- Location: Penge
Nasarocnasaroc wrote:Lewisham Council have put the outline of a plan to the Mayor/TfL which would mean that the extension would come through Catford/Catford Bridge and go along the existing line to Hayes. There have already been some rough estimates of the cost of moving Lower Sydenham station across Southend Lane to the rear of the Savacentre as part of the scheme.
Genuine talks are going on. So who knows, both ends of Sydenham may be connected to the tube before long!
Does that mean the tube would take over one of the existing rail lines ie stopping at New Beckenham, Clock House, etc?
Yes that's correct.
The existing "overground" services to Hayes would, of course, continue to operate as they do now. The Bakerloo service would then be interspersed with the existing service (just as the new ELL line will be interspered with existing services to and from London Bridge).
The Bakerloo line would have to be relaid to take "overground" rail bogeys of course - just as is happening with the existing ELL line. But this is a comparatively easy engineering task.
The existing "overground" services to Hayes would, of course, continue to operate as they do now. The Bakerloo service would then be interspersed with the existing service (just as the new ELL line will be interspered with existing services to and from London Bridge).
The Bakerloo line would have to be relaid to take "overground" rail bogeys of course - just as is happening with the existing ELL line. But this is a comparatively easy engineering task.