Why do we have to wait... East London Line

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Knighton
Posts: 146
Joined: 24 Apr 2006 18:50
Location: sydenham

Why do we have to wait... East London Line

Post by Knighton »

The infrastructure for the East London line, here, is ready and waiting. It seems we have to wait until those north of the river are ready. Why? It seems to me this is the usual prejudice in favour of North of the River locations. They already have the tube.

Of course had some clown not permitted the loop at New Cross Gate to be built on the link to the East London line would be a piece of cake. Reusing the old facility would still seem, to me, to be the more obvious course of action. Then we could have a service direct to Whitechapel, in the interim.

One last point. I do hope the introduction of a tube line to nowhere will not mean mainline services cease to run the existing service which goes halfway to somewhere.... halfway into London Bridge station which is half way to the destinations we want.

Surely the trains could be run on this section, to test them out, at the very least. Planning consent for the flyover at New Cross Gate was applied for years ago.

Weeble
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Location: Sydenham

Post by Weeble »

Looking at it in a glass-half-full way: at least we will continue to get our normal train service until the ELLX is introduced. Whereas the existing ELL will be closed entirely for an 18 month period from 2008 to enable the work on the extension to be carried out.

Knighton
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Post by Knighton »

makes you wonder why they did not do the work when they closed it down before. How many years was that? At the start it was going to be months.

nasaroc
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Post by nasaroc »

Just to reassure Knighton and anyone else who is worried about the arrival of the East London line affecting existing trains to London Bridge/Charing Cross. It is likely that one train per hour to London Bridge will be cancelled; there are NO plans to cancel any other exiting overground trains. Of course, we will have an extra 8 East London trains per hour in each direction meaning that 12/13 trains per hour will stop at each platform - that's one train every five minutes or so. This will be a better service than enjoyed by almost any other area of London.

Far from being "a line to nowhere" as Knighton suggests, the East London Line will be a quicker route to most London destinations via interchanges at Canada Water (to the Jubilee line) and Whitechapel (District Line). Surveys indicate that over 60% of current commuters in this area will be able to get to their destinations more quickly using the new line than the current overground line to London.

I've got my fingers in my ears waiting for Knighton to heap criticism on what is essentially extremely good news for this area - he's recently told me that I shouldn't support this new line because it's merely "passing by" Sydenham. Interesting criticism but not a piece of logic I (or I suspect anyone else) can easily fathom. In the meantime, can I divert some of his criticism by saying that I'm not employed by the East London line and I'm not a member of any political party, merely an enthusiast for the line and delighted as a resident of this area that we will, in just over four years, be enjoying a new line and the huge investment that will bring to this area.

Knighton
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Post by Knighton »

I never stated I opposed the line.
Once more nasarac kindly write your own material and leave me to author mine.
If what you say is true then it is good news. However it is not declared on the project web-site and nor is it declared on the TFL website. They are obtuse on the issue. Time will tell. Meanwhile the expression "we have no plans..." is a public sector euphemism for "we are not going to tell you in case you realise what we really are up to".

The Jubilee line is a slow alternative to the present route. The connections it offers are already available by taking the New Cross line for a short distance or by changing at London Bridge. In other words the ELL means removing one change from a journey.

I am not sure what investment, in the area, you envisage nasarac. I have heard no proposals for sports stadia or gymnastic facilities or even anything more modest in Sydenham. Perhaps you would enlighten us. The proposed service is to enable people who will be based at the Crystal Palace to bypass local services and travel to the Olympic village unhindered and to connect Croydon with the underground system. As I said before it simply passes through Sydenham.

nasaroc
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Post by nasaroc »

If the line "passes through" Sydenham for whatever reason I (and I'm sure other people in this area) will take advantage of it. Who cares why it was originally established. It goes through Sydenham, that's all that matters.

I get regular newsletters from Peter Boxell of the the East London Line Extension and have regular telephone calls with him. I can assure you that the information I have stated on my e mail is correct. But far better to be suspicious of anyone in authority, eh Knighton, they are likely to be telling you porkies!

It is totally untrue to say that Jubilee Line is a slow alternative to the present connections. Let's just take one example. You want to travel from Sydenham to Oxford Street. Currently, you have to get off at London Bridge, go to platform 5, catch a separate train to Charing Cross where you have to walk a long distance down into the depths of the Jubilee line or catch a bus at the front of the station and crawl up Regent St to your destination. With the Jubilee Line extension you have a quick change at Canada Water onto the Jubilee Line and then a short ride to Bond Street where you are opposite the main department stores on Oxford Street.

As for investment, the Jubilee brought 15% more jobs and rising house price rises along its length when it opened. This line will mean the same. I

Why O why are you always trying to find fault with any item of good news for this area John?

Knighton
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Location: sydenham

Post by Knighton »

I suggest you read my opening post.

I asked why do we have to wait. Try addressing that issue.

I suggest you time the options you mentioned. Total travelling time is the issue. The Jubilee Line is slow compared to the mainline option. The journey from New Cross Gate to the Jubilee line, alone, exceeds the journey time to Charing Cross.

Still trying to misrepresent others eh?

Who, by the way, is John?

nasaroc
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Post by nasaroc »

I've tried to answer the questions put by you in your e mail John and I think I've answered them fairly.

As to the question of delay, I don't have any answer to this and I don't think anyone else locally will either. Perhaps you could put these questions to the ELLX personnel? I think we'd all be delighted if you managed to get the ELLX opened earlier than planned.

DaveT
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Location: Sydenham

reasons to be cheerful...

Post by DaveT »

Knighton - I agree with a number of your points, especially the apparent oddities in the order of play for enablement - the southern section, from your comments, does appear to be easier to connect (with some major work for power/line repair, ballast replacement... blah blah..work).

I think there is some confusion as to the initial reasoning for the ELLX though, I don't like to quote - context is never maintained, so apologies in advance.
The proposed service is to enable people who will be based at the Crystal Palace to bypass local services and travel to the Olympic village unhindered and to connect Croydon with the underground system.
I do not believe this to be the case. The ELLX project was proposed before any 2012 bid for the games. It was initially proposed to introduce reliable mass transit connectivity for East and South East London to bring the connectivity in those areas "up to the same level" as other comparable areas of London. [ the 2012 bid / win has since been used to up the priority for the ELLX ]

There have been studies, and actual implementations - the DLR is a case in point - where introduction of more mass transit and connectivity results in more investment, it does not mean that there will be investment before the first train runs.

I think primarily this will be because of the application of common sense. Many UK mass transit plans do not reach fruition, so spending money assuming that the ELLX will arrive before the first train actually embarks is probably considered a risk not worth taking. [ my opinion only, I wouldn't risk my £££ ]

I really look forward to the ELLX, firstly just so I can say "woo - we're on the tube" and any other benifits will be a pleasant surprise!

stuart
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Re: reasons to be cheerful...

Post by stuart »

DaveT wrote:I really look forward to the ELLX, firstly just so I can say "woo - we're on the tube" and any other benifits will be a pleasant surprise!
One real benefit should be that we get onto the proper Oyster pricing system for rail. Freebies etc that people north of the river regulary enjoy are seldom replicated by the rail companies south of the river who don't have to compete. So overall we should get more flexible and often cheaper journies. Of course that is in 2006. 2010 is still a long way away.

And you are right Dave - the ELLX project had nothing to do with the Olympics. Indeed that justification was probably added to safeguard the planned expenditure budget from raids by other 2012 related unfunded transport projects.

Stuart

Knighton
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Location: sydenham

Post by Knighton »

Maybe the zoning for fares could be brought into line with the practice North of the river. There zones begin and end AT stations while here the boundaries are between stations. Seems inoccuous until you realize this means a two zone ticket is necessary where a single zone would do for an equivalent journey on the underground. Crystal Palce is zone 3 or 3/4 for buses and zone 4 for rail.

Rodeoclown
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005 13:32
Location: Sydenham

Post by Rodeoclown »

nasaroc wrote: Let's just take one example. You want to travel from Sydenham to Oxford Street. Currently, you have to get off at London Bridge, go to platform 5, catch a separate train to Charing Cross where you have to walk a long distance down into the depths of the Jubilee line or catch a bus at the front of the station and crawl up Regent St to your destination. With the Jubilee Line extension you have a quick change at Canada Water onto the Jubilee Line and then a short ride to Bond Street where you are opposite the main department stores on Oxford Street.
Um....why on earth do you not just get the Jubilee Line to Bond St tube station from London Bridge????

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