Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

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Tim Lund
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Location: Silverdale

Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by Tim Lund »

ALIB wrote:it is often part of Planning Procedure/Permission that a certain % of a development is given to social housing. This is obviously a big concern to Developers who want to maximise profit, but it is totally at the Local Authorities discretion as to what % is allocated. (subject to negotiation)
This policy is discussed on the "Round up the usual suspects" thread. Negotiaions start at 50% affordable housing for developments of ten dwellings or more. With the Greyhound development the percentage agreed is 35.7%, while it's as low as 20% in the massive developments going up further north in the borough. It would be interesting to have more data - is there a pattern to the outcomes? It's the sort of research feeds such as this could help with, but my web development skills aren't up to this yet. Any planning professionals who know the answer anyway?
Dorian
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by Dorian »

ALIB wrote:but it is totally at the Local Authorities discretion as to what % is allocated. (subject to negotiation)
True to a certain extent, but the amount of Affordable Housing is dictated by adopted policy, not "discretion". Developers will try and minimise this with financial arguments based on viabilty, the method of doing this is by way of the " Three Dragons toolkit "http://www.london.gov.uk/who-runs-londo ... ol-toolkit which is the recognised test to prove the amount of loss making social housing.
biscuitman1978
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Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by biscuitman1978 »

biscuitman1978 wrote:I have asked the planning officer dealing with the application whether the marketing report can be made public. It's not on the Council's website, but it may have been withheld because it contains commercially sensitive information.
The planning officer has kindly arranged for the marketing report to be uploaded. You can read it at http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/ACOLLATEDOCS/90864_1.pdf

Interesting to note that two pub operators, other than Antic, expressed 'some interest' but declined to enter into further discussion because of the low headroom in the basement and because they were unwilling to operate a pub where the customer area is over two levels. I wonder whether either of those operators would reconsider the pub with the proposed larger ground floor and whether they'd be put off by the residential use on the upper floor.

Also interesting to note that a firm offer was made by William Hill. Acorn, on behalf of Purelake, declined the offer because William Hill didn't want the upper floor.
biscuitman1978 wrote:I'm not sure why the Planning Statement says that change of use to a betting shop would require planning permission, as the change of use from a pub (A4 use) to betting shop (A2 use) is usually 'permitted development', i.e. you have the right to change from A4 to A2 without permission. I've asked the planning officer whether he is aware of any conditions attached to the previous permission, or any 'Article 4 Directions', which might have withdrawn that right.
The planning officer has told me that:
Planning Officer wrote:There was no condition included with the previous permission restricting the use to a public house, therefore A1/A2 use would indeed have been lawful.

Now that the building has largely been demolished, effectively we are starting again, therefore should the current application be granted, a condition could be attached that restricts the use of the ground floor to a public house only.
In other words, before the building was demolished a betting shop could indeed have taken the building, but that may not be the case with the 'new' building, provided a condition is imposed.

I must say that the idea we're 'starting again' (rather than reinstating what was demolished without consent and then making amendments to that) is a bit weird, as the application seeks permission for 'change of use' of the upper floor, and if we're 'starting again' there's no use to change!
michael
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by michael »

biscuitman1978 wrote:Planning Officer wrote:There was no condition included with the previous permission restricting the use to a public house, therefore A1/A2 use would indeed have been lawful.

Now that the building has largely been demolished, effectively we are starting again, therefore should the current application be granted, a condition could be attached that restricts the use of the ground floor to a public house only.
The 2010 approvaldid not include A2 units. All non-residential units on the site were given permission for A1/A3/A4, none of which would have covered a betting shop.

It is possible that further permission could have been sought for A2 use, but it would have required an application of change of use as I do not believe there is an automatic assumption that permission for A1/A3/A4 can be converted to A2.

The new application rules out A1 as well as A2, only allowing the ground floor and basement of the new pub building to be used as a pub or restaurant (A3/A4).

There is only one pub I can think of locally that is across two floors and that is the Hob, which uses the upstairs as a comedy club and allows local groups to hold meetings. What does seem unlikely is drinking across two floors.
biscuitman1978
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by biscuitman1978 »

michael wrote:The 2010 approvaldid not include A2 units. All non-residential units on the site were given permission for A1/A3/A4, none of which would have covered a betting shop.
Not quite right. The A1/A3/A4 use related to the ground floor units in the new buildings; the A3/A4 use related to the Greyhound. But it's academic, as you don't need planning permission to change from A3 or A4 use to A2, or to A1 for that matter. See the table here (in the section headed 'Changes of use not requiring planning permission').
michael wrote:It is possible that further permission could have been sought for A2 use, but it would have required an application of change of use as I do not believe there is an automatic assumption that permission for A1/A3/A4 can be converted to A2.
It wouldn't have required permission! See link above.
michael wrote:The new application rules out A1 as well as A2, only allowing the ground floor and basement of the new pub building to be used as a pub or restaurant (A3/A4).
A1 and A2 will only be ruled out if a condition is imposed removing the automatic right to change from A3/A4 to A1/A2.
michael wrote:There is only one pub I can think of locally that is across two floors and that is the Hob, which uses the upstairs as a comedy club and allows local groups to hold meetings. What does seem unlikely is drinking across two floors.
Agreed.
michael
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by michael »

Thanks for that information. So any pub can become a betting shop - that's lovely to know.
leenewham
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by leenewham »

That is stupid. What is the point of having different classes if you don't need permission to change from one use to another?

It explains Deptford high Street which once had 12 pubs and now has only one or two, but lots and lots of betting shops, many in old pubs.

For those who think A2 is a size of paper, I"ve cut and pasted this from the planning portal:

The following list gives an indication of the types of use which may fall within each use class. Please note that this is a guide only and it's for local planning authorities to determine, in the first instance, depending on the individual circumstances of each case, which use class a particular use falls into.

A1 Shops - Shops, retail warehouses, hairdressers, undertakers, travel and ticket agencies, post offices (but not sorting offices), pet shops, sandwich bars, showrooms, domestic hire shops, dry cleaners, funeral directors and internet cafes.
A2 Financial and professional services - Financial services such as banks and building societies, professional services (other than health and medical services) including estate and employment agencies and betting offices.
A3 Restaurants and cafés - For the sale of food and drink for consumption on the premises - restaurants, snack bars and cafes.
A4 Drinking establishments - Public houses, wine bars or other drinking establishments (but not night clubs).
A5 Hot food takeaways - For the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises.

If the bit in bold is true and Lewisham are saying you can change usage and are allowing betting shops to take over many high streets, then they need to have a rethink.

They also need more powers to take away alcohol licenses from rogue businesses like the one that has been in the papers in Brockley. They aren't very good at that.
Eagle
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by Eagle »

Went in new Antic Pub in Catford today. Great beers and great service.

You would not know you were in Catford in the Pub. Better than any current Sydenham Pub.
biscuitman1978
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Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by biscuitman1978 »

michael wrote:Thanks for that information. So any pub can become a betting shop - that's lovely to know.
No worries. And yes, any pub can become a betting shop, unless the original permission specifically removes the right to change to A2 use, or an 'Article 4' direction has been imposed.

That said, the bookmaker taking on the pub may need to make changes to the exterior of the building, some or all of which may need planning permission, and may need advertising consent for some or all of its signage.
leenewham wrote:That is stupid. What is the point of having different classes if you don't need permission to change from one use to another?
There are only limited circumstances in which you can change from one use to another. For example, while you can change from A4 to A1 without permission you cannot change from A1 to any other use without permission. This is all set out in the General Permitted Development Order (as amended), and summarised in the table to which I provided a link earlier in this thread.
leenewham wrote:It explains Deptford high Street which once had 12 pubs and now has only one or two, but lots and lots of betting shops, many in old pubs.
There is mounting interest in changing the General Permitted Development Order so that you would need permission for change of use from a pub to anything else. A Ten Minute Rule Bill was introduced in the Commons in the past few days, although because of a lack of Parliamentary time it has little or no prospect of becoming law. More at http://www.bighospitality.co.uk/Legisla ... tep-closer
leenewham wrote:For those who think A2 is a size of paper, I"ve cut and pasted this from the planning portal:

The following list gives an indication of the types of use which may fall within each use class. Please note that this is a guide only and it's for local planning authorities to determine, in the first instance, depending on the individual circumstances of each case, which use class a particular use falls into.

A1 Shops - Shops, retail warehouses, hairdressers, undertakers, travel and ticket agencies, post offices (but not sorting offices), pet shops, sandwich bars, showrooms, domestic hire shops, dry cleaners, funeral directors and internet cafes.
A2 Financial and professional services - Financial services such as banks and building societies, professional services (other than health and medical services) including estate and employment agencies and betting offices.
A3 Restaurants and cafés - For the sale of food and drink for consumption on the premises - restaurants, snack bars and cafes.
A4 Drinking establishments - Public houses, wine bars or other drinking establishments (but not night clubs).
A5 Hot food takeaways - For the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises.

If the bit in bold is true and Lewisham are saying you can change usage and are allowing betting shops to take over many high streets, then they need to have a rethink.
If by 'the bit in bold' you mean 'it's for local planning authorities to determine ... which use class a particular use falls into', it's usually pretty clear cut. Where the use is unusual most local planning authorities will refer to the Land Use Gazetteer (http://www.leafcoppin.com/). But sometimes it's more tricky, especially where something appears to have two uses. For example, at what point does a restaurant that offers take away effectively become a take away rather than a restaurant (a change of use for which permission would be needed)? One for a discussion in a new thread, I think!
Eagle
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by Eagle »

Antic name still on the board in front of half built ex pub. Does this mean they have had second thoughts.
Rachael
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Re: Antic pubs have withdrawn from the Greyhound

Post by Rachael »

Don't think so, Eagle. I think it was never painted over after they withdrew.

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