Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

The place for serious discussion, announcements and breaking news about Sydenham

Moderator: frenzarin

leenewham
Posts: 5886
Joined: 2 Sep 2007 11:58
Location: SYDENHAM
Contact:

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by leenewham »

caseyref wrote:As an fyi for everyone Sainsbury's are not planning to open a Local at The Greyhound anymore.
Do we know this as a fact?

Tim Lund
Posts: 6714
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by Tim Lund »

EUSSR wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:
EUSSR wrote:"What's the problem with The Windmill? "

you mean apart from it being one of the worst scuzziest pubs you're likely to walk into !
So - is there a way that could be expressed in a way a licencing committee would act on?

since they dont have any say, as far as I'm aware, on the clientele and "entertainment" if you can call it that, then that would be a NO
Here's Lewisham's policy document on this from which
1.6 The Act sets out four main licensing objectives which the Council has a duty to promote in determining applications:

– Prevention of Crime and Disorder
– Public Safety
– Prevention of Public Nuisance
– Protection of Children from Harm

Each of the objectives is considered to be of equal importance.
15.0 Complaints Against Licensed Premises

15.1 Complaints relating to the activities carried out at licensed premises of any description will be referred to the Council’s Licensing Services. Where appropriate complainants may be encouraged to raise the complaint directly with the licensee or business concerned.

15.2 The Council where practicable will seek to facilitate mediation between applicants, relevant statutory agencies and occupiers of nearby premises, local residents groups, community or interested groups where significant issues have arisen relating to a licence application or the operations of licensed premises. The Council, where possible, will facilitate mediation through:
- Identification of potential issues for other relevant statutory agencies particularly regarding the safety and amenity of local residents.
- Negotiation of, if possible, potential conditions to reflect resolutions agreed at mediation forums.

15.3 Where mediation is not practicable or fails the Council will arrange for a hearing to review the licence or application.

15.4 This process if used will not override the right of any interested party to ask that the Council consider its valid objection or for any licence holder to decline to participate in a mediation meeting.

15.5 The Council will disregard any representations which are irrelevant, frivolous and/or vexatious.

15.6 A senior police officer may, under section 161 of the Licensing Act 2003, close a premises in the interest of public safety for up to 24 hours on the grounds of likely or imminent disorder on or in the vicinity of the premises. Premises may also be closed if a public nuisance is being caused by noise from the premises.

15.7 Additionally a review of the licence will take place within 28 days of any action by the police to close down the premises for up to 24 hours or longer if so granted by the Magistrates’ Court on the grounds of disorder or public nuisance – Annex L of the Secretary of State’s Guidance and section 167 of the Licensing Act 2003.
I've no experience of dealing with licencing issues, but this would seem the way to raise any complaints you have. Local government officers and Councillors do generally want to serve the public, although I'll admit they don't always do a good job. But you can't reasonably complain if you don't first try to deal with a problem through the proper channels.

EUSSR
Posts: 77
Joined: 16 May 2013 14:40

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by EUSSR »

"But you can't reasonably complain if you don't first try to deal with a problem through the proper channels."

I have dealt with it ...I dont go there, and on the few occasions that I did, it was purely for the novelty value.

As to complaining...bothered not.

bring on sainsburys...far more use

Moonpig
Posts: 22
Joined: 3 Nov 2009 09:15
Location: SE26

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by Moonpig »

If Sainsburys is not opening at The Greyhound anymore, what is going to open in the retail unit instead? If it stays vacant, along with a half built pub (or fully re-buit, but vacant pub) then this really won't be good :(

Also previous posts mentioned the hope that Sainsburys moving in may help to curb the rubbish and other problems in the new alleyway- now that they are not moving in, it looks like these problems maybe ongoing...

I would be all for the Windmill staying a pub if it upped its game and was not so dire - Kirkdale is crying out for a decent pub and it doesn't have to be gastro, just somewhere vaguely nice to go a for a pint of an evening.
Can't see this happening considering the Antic fiasco at The Greyhound, therefore bring on the Sainsburys - it may hopefully help to curb the number of other convenience stores that Sydenham has in abundance and encourage other, different shops to open instead.

gillyjp
Posts: 294
Joined: 5 May 2005 18:52
Location: Sydenham

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by gillyjp »

Eagle wrote:Oh this is sad news. I guess all down to the Greyhound debacle.

That would have been a much better site than the one mentioned in the old High Street.

I trust the people that fought teeth and nail to hold onto the Greyhound at all costs are savouring their victory.
Yes - by 'the people that fought tooth and nail to hold onto the Greyhound' you surely must mean the Sydenham Society? Rather than now having a 'Gateway' to Sydenham we have an eyesore and total mess thanks mainly to them. It makes me so cross - it could have been such a better development but thanks to their meddling and insisting that the Greyhound remain a pub, getting the area listed as a conservation area - it continues to remain an embarrassment and testament to their interference. What a waste of time and now even Sainsburys have given up. The Sydenham Society should be ashamed of themselves.

simono
Posts: 95
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 14:22
Location: Sydenham

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by simono »

Oh dear, what a mess. If the Windmill is to become a Sainsbury's will there be a huge campaign to keep it as a pub like we have had for the Two Halves or because it is up Kirkale doesn't it matter?
And we have a ruin at the site of the Greyhound when we could have, as Gillyjp has said, a high quality development, when because the Sydenham Society stuck its nose into things it didn't understand we going to be left with an eyesore rather than the gateway we could have had.

hairybuddha

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by hairybuddha »

Bit harsh on Syd Soc - They are clearly concerned with preserving the look and feel of the town - A yawning great eyesore seems perfectly appropriate.

leenewham
Posts: 5886
Joined: 2 Sep 2007 11:58
Location: SYDENHAM
Contact:

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by leenewham »

Work on the greyhound will start soon. Knocking it down would mean that the first thing people see when they come here is a supermarket. Good on the Syd Soc for saving the oldest put in the area so we now have the opportunity of an exciting addition to the high street. People need to be patient. Not long ago people were complaining about the development behind the Greyhound, now it seems people want it to be on view.

Give it time, it will work out.

marymck
Posts: 1578
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by marymck »

I know I'm breaking my self imposed rule about posting, but it's just to pass on some information. I'm told sainsbury's have not yet purchased the windmill and that their decision whether or not to purchase will be influenced by whether they get a licence for off sales from 06.00 to 00.00 hrs.

Closing date for objections to the licence is 11th June.

The windmill's staff and customers intend to start a petition to keep the pub.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] Image

EUSSR
Posts: 77
Joined: 16 May 2013 14:40

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by EUSSR »

"Bit harsh on Syd Soc - They are clearly concerned with preserving the look and feel of the town "

but typical of this sort of organisation and most of its members , they live in the past

one leg chris
Posts: 1
Joined: 22 May 2013 15:46
Location: uk

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by one leg chris »

hi I an a user of this pub and am disabled I am a user of a wheelchair one of the main reasons I use this pub is that it is the only pub I can get into in the area that has a disabled toilet so I say save this pub for that reason alone there is many more people in my position that use this pub for the same reason and have access to the outside garden area and always find the staff most helpful please please stop the pub turning into a sainsburys we just had a tescos express put on this street the pub is part of our community and should remain a pub

NatashaM
Posts: 76
Joined: 3 Mar 2011 09:17
Location: SE26

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by NatashaM »

I can't believe people are slagging off SydSoc over the Greyhound.

It was never in the plans that the pub would go. Pure Lake illegally demolished the pub against the agreed planning application.

Eagle
Posts: 10658
Joined: 7 Oct 2004 06:36
Location: F Hill

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by Eagle »

Natasha
Yes perhaps a bit had on a group of well meaning citizens , who have the interests of everyone at heart ( or I hope they do).

I do wonder how many of the top brass of the society ever visited the Greyhound prior to current problem.

In years since I started drinking in Pubs , about 66 , The Greyhound was usually best avoided.
It attracted the wrong sort of clientelle and rarely had any decent ale.

In many ways would think a coffee shop better suited to the new environment.

marymck
Posts: 1578
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by marymck »

A concerned local resident (not me!) visited Laurence House this afternoon and saw a
licencing officer - Simon Duckett. This is the resident's understanding of that conversation:

  • 1 Sainsburys is opening a store on the site now occupied by The Windmill on a 24 hour
    basis and is applying for a licence to sell alcohol between the hours of 6 am to 12 midnight.

    2 According to Lewisham, there was no need to put in a planning application as it is not a
    "change of use" of the premises. [***see my comments below***]

    3 Not known at what date Sainsburys propose to open it as a supermarket with alcohol licence.

    4 It seems that they are the owners of the building.

    5 If anbody wants to make an objection to the granting of the alcohol licence, there are four licence objectives that will be taken into account -

    (i) Prevention of crime and disorder

    (ii) Public safety

    (iii) Prevention of public nuisance

    (iv) Protection of children from harm.

    6 Any objection has to tie in with the four points in 5(a), (b), (c) and (d) above and must relate to the "alcohol" element not that it is to be a supermarket.

    7 Date for objections is midnight on 11 June 2013.
The telephone No of the Lewisham Premises Licencing Department is
020 8314 6400.

I will post again as soon as I have further information.

*** I believe Sainsbury's will require planning permission, because I believe Lewisham now have a pub protection policy, lessons having (hopefully!) been learnt by the loss of The Woodman as a community asset. But clearly time is of the essence and there's a real risk it could become a fait accompli by default if a licence is granted. ***

marymck
Posts: 1578
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by marymck »

Objections should be put in writing, with your name and address, to:
Licensing Team
Fourth Floor
1 Laurence House, Catford Road
SE6 4RU
Tel:
020 8314 6400

Email:
licensing@lewisham.gov.uk
Any objections should reach the Licensing Team by midnight on 11th June and MUST relate only to the four grounds for objection mentioned in my previous post.

marymck
Posts: 1578
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by marymck »

Here is some further guidance, from Lewisham's website ...
Licensing - guidance on making a representation

A key feature of the new licensing regime is to allow local communities to have a say in licensing decisions that may affect them. It also ensures that professionals such as the police, fire authorities, trading standards and environmental health officers are able to scrutinise applications and take action if problems occur.

The Licensing Act 2003 allows the views of local people and businesses to be taken into account when someone applies for a licence or certificate to carry out a licensable activity such as selling alcohol, providing regulated entertainment and providing late night refreshment.
Are you an interested party?

To have your say, you must be an 'interested party' for the premises concerned. This means you must either be a:

person living in the vicinity of the premises
body (such as a residents' association) representing people that live in that vicinity
person involved in a business in the vicinity of the premises
body (such as a trade association) representing people involved in businesses in the vicinity of the premises.

Whether somebody lives or works 'in the vicinity' of a premises is a matter that will be decided by the relevant licensing authority (and where there are disputes, by the courts).

In deciding this, licensing authorities may look at whether that party is likely to be affected by the grant of the licence application in respect of those premises.

While licensing authorities may wish to give broad indications of where they consider the vicinity to be, each case must be considered on its own merits.

Interested parties have a number of rights under the Act. If they think granting a new licence or certificate or changing an existing one would undermine any of the licensing objectives, they can make representations to the relevant licensing authority. They can also ask the licensing authority to review a licence or certificate if problems occur which undermine the licensing objectives. The licensing objectives are:

the prevention of crime and disorder
public safety
the prevention of public nuisance
the protection of children from harm.

You can download further guidance notes below for more information about interested parties.

Guidance for Interested parties: making representations

Date:
25 November 2010
Type:
pdf
Size:
37.9kb

Guidance for interested parties: appealing licensing decisions

Date:
12 April 2011
Type:
pdf
Size:
34.7kb

Contact

Licensing Team
Fourth Floor
1 Laurence House, Catford Road
SE6 4RU
Tel:
020 8314 6400

Email:
licensing@lewisham.gov.uk
The link to this page is ...

https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/ ... ation.aspx

And you will find more links to further guidance on the webpage.

dantheman
Posts: 11
Joined: 21 Aug 2011 23:41
Location: se26

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by dantheman »

the windmill has been up for sale for years, advertised with different commercial agents and the price slashed several times. nobody wanted to buy it and keep it as a pub because guess what it doesnt earn enough money to make it a viable investment. no love or effort has been put into the windmill for that reason. sainsburys bought the property late last year and i say let them get on with it.

marymck
Posts: 1578
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by marymck »

As the windmill always seems to be packed, your info makes me wonder if the property company who owned the pub gave the landlord a very unfair lease. It wouldn't be the first time a property company has deliberately made it tough for a pub to be viable.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] Image

dantheman
Posts: 11
Joined: 21 Aug 2011 23:41
Location: se26

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by dantheman »

fact of the matter is the owner can charge whatever rent they like regardless if fair or not, nobody forced to take a lease or just maybe the owner had a large debt to service therefore dictating the rent needed or maybe just thought sell up and invest the proceeds elsewhere, guess well never know for sure. one thing for sure, if it was worth buying to keep as a pub im sure another pubco would of done so, obviously the market didnt think so!

Tim Lund
Posts: 6714
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: Windmill pub becoming a sainsburys?

Post by Tim Lund »

Thanks, Dan. Your common sense comes like a breath of fresh air.

Post Reply