Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

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marymck
Posts: 1579
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by marymck »

The deadline is fast approaching for concerned Sydenhamites to make representations to Lewisham Council if they want to oppose the application by Sainsbury's for an off licence for alcohol sales from 06.00 - midnight, 7 days a week.

The application relates to 125-131 Kirkdale, which is currently The Windmill Public House. If Sainsbury's are successful in their application then it is highly likely the pub will close and a Sainsbury's Supermarket open in its place.

Representations (Council speak for letters of objection or support) need to be received by Lewisham's Licensing Department by midnight on 11th June.

To have your say, you must be an 'interested party' for the premises concerned. This means you must either be a:

person living in the vicinity of the premises
body (such as a residents' association) representing people that live in that vicinity
person involved in a business in the vicinity of the premises
body (such as a trade association) representing people involved in businesses in the vicinity of the premises.

Whether somebody lives or works 'in the vicinity' of a premises is a matter that will be decided by the relevant licensing authority (and where there are disputes, by the courts).

In deciding this, licensing authorities may look at whether that party is likely to be affected by the grant of the licence application in respect of those premises.

While licensing authorities may wish to give broad indications of where they consider the vicinity to be, each case must be considered on its own merits.
I would say pretty much all of the people who post on this Forum - and obviously those who use The Windmill, or might think about using a pub on that site in the future - have a connection with "the vicinity" (a pretty flexible word, in my opinion.)

More details and this Forum's discussion can be found here (if I can post the link!) http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9403

Representations have to be made in writing - e-mail is acceptable. The letter or e-mail has to include your name and address and clearly state your reason for opposing the issue of the licence.

Just saying that you want to save the pub is not a valid reason for objection, under Council rules. For your views to be taken into consideration you have to follow the criteria set out below.

Letters or e-mails of objection will not be counted unless you clearly cite at least one of the following four valid reasons for objection:
the prevention of crime and disorder
public safety
the prevention of public nuisance
the protection of children from harm
Personally, I think all four of those reasons apply in this case. In my opinion, these licensing hours will lead to an increase in crime and disorder and nuisance associated with street drinking, which has already proved a problem in other parts of Sydenham. The closeness of the Miriam Lodge Hostel I believe is also an issue. As is the presence of two large schools.

Objections should be addressed to:

Licensing Team
Fourth Floor
1 Laurence House, Catford Road
SE6 4RU
Tel:
020 8314 6400

Email:
licensing@lewisham.gov.uk
As of last night, only two objections had been received by Lewisham Council. Please, please - I urge anyone who values The Windmill's site as a social gathering place to oppose the issue of this alcohol off sales licence. It is the first battle we face in saving the pub and it is a vital one.

[b]REMEMBER: TO BE CONSIDERED, COMMENTS MUST BE RECEIVED BY MIDNIGHT ON 11TH JUNE, THEY MUST CITE AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOUR VALID REASONS FOR OBJECTION, AND THEY MUST INCLUDE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS.
marymck
Posts: 1579
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by marymck »

I should also add that, until a few days ago, there was a petition in the pub. The owner objected to the petition and took it away. To date, we have been unable to retrieve the petition. Some people may think this is theft and very possibly against the Data Protection Act. Perhaps Bensonby could offer some guidance here please?
caseyref
Posts: 23
Joined: 21 Nov 2007 00:47
Location: Kirkdale

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by caseyref »

I think its a bit hypocritical for the following to object a small convenience store for a PUB

"the prevention of crime and disorder
public safety
the prevention of public nuisance
the protection of children from harm"

In my eyes as a very local resident the pub is more off putting due to the locals and the amount of drunk individuals that i find outside on a regular occurrence.

In reality if i could have opposed another pub (baring in mind there is the bricklayers arms & foxes) i definitely would!

Another shop would bring more money in the area and be of more use to more people including the elderly if they cannot travel too far than a pub.
bensonby
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Joined: 18 Jun 2008 12:28
Location: Kent

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by bensonby »

caseyref wrote:
In my eyes as a very local resident the pub is more off putting due to the locals and the amount of drunk individuals that i find outside on a regular occurrence.
It is illegal to be drunk in a pub. It is illegal for a landlord to allow someone to be drunk in a pub. It is illegal for a pub to serve someone who is drunk.

Pubs are more accountable in law. It is a controlled environment: if a landlord flouts these laws then they put their license at risk. A shop is far less accountable (although, they can also have their licenses reviewed - it is just rather a lot harder to prove that problem selling of alcohol occurs there).
multisync
Posts: 282
Joined: 5 Sep 2007 06:12
Location: upper sydenham

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by multisync »

They closed down the Woodman which was a much nicer and more historic pub than the Windmill. Why save the Windmill ?
JulietP
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Location: SE26

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by JulietP »

multisync wrote:They closed down the Woodman which was a much nicer and more historic pub than the Windmill. Why save the Windmill ?
This ^^

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marymck
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Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by marymck »

multisync wrote:They closed down the Woodman which was a much nicer and more historic pub than the Windmill. Why save the Windmill ?
We tried to save the woodman and would have opposed its change to an off licence. Sadly, there wasn't much we could do to stop it becoming an estate agency. Wooster and Stock have ruined that locally listed building, and are in serious breach of their planning permission. But so far it has proved impossible to get enforcement action from Lewisham council. However, as W&S are now allowed to demolish the old stables and squeeze a house into the space, the historic woodman is lost forever as part of our social infrastructure.

The Windmill is not yet lost. If we lose a pub on that site then kirkdale will have lost 50% of its pubs. If a supermarket opens there we have lost a pub on that site forever.

But the point of this thread is to try to stop the issue of an extended off licence. Do you really want street drinkers making this a go to destination?

If we can stop the extended off sales licence, sainsburys may not buy the pub.

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Chris Best
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Location: Sydenham

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by Chris Best »

You might be interested to read the briefing from the Local Government Association on Public Health and alcohol licensing in England -

http://www.local.gov.uk/c/document_libr ... upId=10171

Now that the local authority has responsibility for public health we asking the Director of Public Health for his views to be included in Committee reports.
GraceBrooks
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Joined: 15 Jul 2013 23:21
Location: London

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by GraceBrooks »

A little confused?? The Windmil is not a listed building... Also it is a pub where people buy drinks and on the weekend it is a mess. Mary I do not understand what you are talking about - How many Sainsburys locals are there where there are many people standing outside drinking alcohol and causing a farce?? Not as many as there are in that pub?

Surely you should be spending your time trying to save community centers or opening places to encourage the youth to take part in arts or creative stuff rather than save an awful pub which will probably close down anyway as it is always empty and I read not making any money?? Priorities- perspective and all that.
marymck
Posts: 1579
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by marymck »

GraceBrooks wrote:A little confused?? The Windmil is not a listed building... Also it is a pub where people buy drinks and on the weekend it is a mess. Mary I do not understand what you are talking about - How many Sainsburys locals are there where there are many people standing outside drinking alcohol and causing a farce?? Not as many as there are in that pub?

Surely you should be spending your time trying to save community centers or opening places to encourage the youth to take part in arts or creative stuff rather than save an awful pub which will probably close down anyway as it is always empty and I read not making any money?? Priorities- perspective and all that.
Hmm that's a new one. Being told how I should spend my own time. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone how they should be spending their own time, But please grace do start a thread on here about how you're working to save community centres. Which ones are under threat? I'm sure many would like to support you in your efforts.

As for your comments about the windmill, all I can say is you're not describing the pub I know and so I wonder how well you know upper kirkdale and whether you've actually spent any time in the windmill. That is a busy community gathering place, although because it's big it doesn't always look busy. It frequently hosts wedding receptions, birthday parties and wakes. It is the only pub in the area with full disabled access, including a properly designed disabled loo, big enough to turn a wheelchair round. It welcimes children to 5 p.m. and POP up events have been held there. The windmill supported the Portas Pilot bid and the bid film was screened there.

It really is much loved by a big section of the local community.

It is a well managed pub.

I am surprised you don't know that other parts of sydenham suffer from street drinking issues, and that nearby Miriam lodge is an added issue. Many of those residents are vulnerable with alcohol issues. The manager of Miriam lodge also objected to this application.

BTW my understanding is that the pub has been starved of investment by the current owners, who are property developers and have no interest in running a pub, profitable and popular or otherwise.. They won't even repair the cooker! Nevertheless, the windmill provides a popular and thriving social gathering place.

Finally, I'd just like to point out that just two doors away is an empty shop of similar proportions to the windmill. If there were need for yet another supermarket in that short stretch of road where we already have four (and I don't think that would contribute to a balanced high street) I would have thought that a better and not so contentious location. Many would still not be happy about the long licensing hours and the inevitable price war on alcohol that will erupt between Tesco and Sainsburys.



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GraceBrooks
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Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by GraceBrooks »

Waitrose would be amazing, it's a shame we don't have one closeby!

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marymck
Posts: 1579
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by marymck »

GraceBrooks wrote:Waitrose would be amazing, it's a shame we don't have one closeby!

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Waitrose unlikely to come to upper kirkdale, as they tend not to open branches in traditional working class areas. They know the majority can't afford to shop there. I don't believe they pub grab either, whereas Sainsburys and Tesco are stuck in a tit for tat battle of "where you go, there go I".

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michael
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Location: Forest Hill

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by michael »

10 minutes drive to the nearest Waitrose. That's pretty close if you ask me.
Obviously one doesn't walk to Waitrose :oops:
Mr_Sheen
Posts: 185
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Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by Mr_Sheen »

GraceBrooks wrote:Waitrose would be amazing, it's a shame we don't have one closeby!

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Obviously the type of resident in the area doesn't appeal to Waitrose and vice versa. If a brand of supermarket is so important in your life why not either shop with them online or just move closer to one?
Robin Orton
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Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by Robin Orton »

I noticed a ?new hand-written notice in the window of The Windmill this morning. It said that the battle had been won and that the building was going to continue to be a pub, and urged everyone to use it to avoid the building becoming an 'empty shell.'
marymck
Posts: 1579
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by marymck »

Robin Orton wrote:I noticed a ?new hand-written notice in the window of The Windmill this morning. It said that the battle had been won and that the building was going to continue to be a pub, and urged everyone to use it to avoid the building becoming an 'empty shell.'
Yes, a lot has been going on behind the scenes. But I was waiting for written confirmation before posting. Fingers crossed.

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G-Man
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Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by G-Man »

Well done Mary. This is great news. Now, if the owners don't like it they should get rid of it as a going concern. I think with some TLC it could be a lovely space but still retain its old clientele. The Gowlett in Peckham has done this brilliantly. All the old regulars still go there as well as new young things. They mix happily in the pub.

G-Man

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Annie.
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Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by Annie. »

Well done Mary and any others who made this happen.

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parker
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Location: Sydenham Wells

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by parker »

Pretty frustrated the dive is going to continue to exist. It's already an empty shell. Sainsbury's would have created a huge footfall in Kirkdale, maybe even a Caffe Nero might have opened near it. Sorry to hear it won't be happening.

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JulietP
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Location: SE26

Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

Post by JulietP »

parker wrote:Pretty frustrated the dive is going to continue to exist. It's already an empty shell. Sainsbury's would have created a huge footfall in Kirkdale, maybe even a Caffe Nero might have opened near it. Sorry to hear it won't be happening.

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Must admit my reaction was similar to this. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I suspect!

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