Sydenham under a new flight path?

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John H
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by John H » 24 Jan 2019 08:42

JGD wrote:
23 Jan 2019 10:27
John H wrote:
23 Jan 2019 09:36
That said, Great Britain being an island, why do any huge planes need to fly over inland anyway - why not have coastal airports and "stack" circling planes offshore?
As some of you may know ThorNogson is leading a small team from FohSoc on the subject of aircraft noise and overflights in our areas.

He has presented evidence to a Heathrow body and has been invited to join that body. The group has met with a adjacent MP Vicky Foxcroft at a further meeting where another Heathrow team made presentations about their proposal for an airspace redesign that would start from a blank sheet. That team expressed confidence that the outcomes from the consultation and redesign work would mean that the system of stacks would no longer be required. That in itself is a huge challenge.

As a heads up we know that a representative body nearer the Lambeth area has a planned meeting with LCY's new CEO along with their MP Kate Hoey taking place at London City Airport tomorrow. The FohSoc group have an agreement to meet with senior managers at LCY in the near future.

Watch out in the near future for a summarised position paper being published by FohSoc in Lewisham Life and on FohSoc website.
Please edit your post. You are attributing words, to me, that were a requote of someone else's

JGD
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by JGD » 24 Jan 2019 09:18

John H wrote:
24 Jan 2019 08:42
Please edit your post. You are attributing words, to me, that were a requote of someone else's
Amended John H - with apologies - not sure how the error arose as I did not make a manual edit to the quote - but it's corrected now. And apologies to Mosy who did tell me I was in error - somehow I did not pick up what was wrong.

stuart
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by stuart » 24 Jan 2019 13:26

JGD wrote:
23 Jan 2019 10:27
As some of you may know ThorNogson is leading a small team from FohSoc on the subject of aircraft noise and overflights in our areas.

He has presented evidence to a Heathrow body and has been invited to join that body. The group has met with a adjacent MP Vicky Foxcroft at a further meeting where another Heathrow team made presentations about their proposal for an airspace redesign that would start from a blank sheet. That team expressed confidence that the outcomes from the consultation and redesign work would mean that the system of stacks would no longer be required. That in itself is a huge challenge.

As a heads up we know that a representative body nearer the Lambeth area has a planned meeting with LCY's new CEO along with their MP Kate Hoey taking place at London City Airport tomorrow. The FohSoc group have an agreement to meet with senior managers at LCY in the near future.
Does this mean they may shift on their stance of holding NO public consultation events in South/Southeast London?

I can understand that theoretically they believe that being further away we are less affected but the combination with the LCY flightpaths we are at many times suffering a double dose - so we have more quantity. Also when it comes to volume there are specific problems with many transatlantic flights that on approach from the west hang a sharp left over Crystal Palace to enter the final approach westwards back to Heathrow.

They do increase thrust to compensate for the loss of vertical lift from banking. I don't know if it is still true that aircraft and engine designers still try to mitigate sound going downwards by sending it sidewards but if they do - during a bank this would hit Sydenham.

All questions I would like to ask for which there may be useful answers. A public meeting would be good for that.

Stuart

mosy
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by mosy » 24 Jan 2019 16:59

Stuart, I did notice in the.pdf link that ThorNogsom posted that the London Assembly's intent is that:
Quote:
The Independent Commission on Civil Aviation Noise (ICCAN) should take a comprehensive view of noise across London and lead to changes in noise management. It should also act as a single point of contact for Londoners with issues about aircraft noise, to make it easier to register views and make complaints. The Mayor should work with ICCAN to encourage and facilitate this work, and relevant boroughs should engage, perhaps via London councils, to ensure a strategic view across London.
Endquote
[my bold]

If a local group or consultation is established, encouraging the above (ICCAN as "collector of views") would perhaps give voice to a wider readership if it does happen.

JGD
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by JGD » 24 Jan 2019 17:46

stuart wrote:
24 Jan 2019 13:26
Does this mean they may shift on their stance of holding NO public consultation events in South/Southeast London?
In a simplistic sense the answer is yes.

But we sense that this will require very careful scrutiny on the part of the several campaigning bodies of LCY's behaviours in the next rounds. We were alarmed at a very much earlier stage that LCY were promulgating a view that they might only consult with Tower Hamlets. Not anymore they don't.

Historically LCY have a very bad track record on the consultation front. To the point that our little group examined the possibility of evaluating whether a Judicial Review might be appropriate given the apparently incomplete aspects of what LCY did last time round. In consultation with a neighboring group who revealed that they had already given some thought to that approach but took advice that suggested that LCY had already been given a clean bill of health (possibly by the CAA) on their activities and therefore our neighbours declined to proceed and we have concluded for the mean-time that our neighbour's approach was prudent.

A recent FIO to Lewisham council revealed that whilst the council has responded to the last consultation, the information supplied to the council by LCY was insufficient for them to respond meaningfully and they had requested further clarification from LCY in the process. Whilst we do not know yet whether LCY did make clarification we re-examined LCY's record of events and it seem that they recorded Lewisham as having not objected. More scrutiny and thought required here.

On our patch we are suffering a double overflight and double crossover of LHR and LCY flights. LHR at circa 4500 ft and LCY at 2000 feet. Further more LCY have decreed that approaching aircraft must fly a single track corridor at this 2000 ft for approximately 13 km from points east of us. And the corridor whilst probably defined at a 1000m wide is in fact used almost exclusively on a much narrower single track meaning you can virtually predict which chimneys they will fly over.

On a noise reduction consideration, the fact that LHR fly at circa 4000ft means that LCY must not exceed the 2000ft ceiling to maintain vertical separation at the double crossover. We feel this a grave error and that LHR should fly on at over 7500ft and increase the ceiling for LCY flights and thereby provide some relief in terms of noise reduction.

Let our group get our summary paper out. We are additionally planning to prepare a how-to guide to assist people in their responses to the consultation.

A public meeting thereafter with perhaps Ellie Reeves on board plus the Lewisham mayor would be excellent. MP's in adjacent boroughs have become very engaged and ThorNogson's hard work has brought about acknowledgement by LHR and LCY that they are now much more aware of the issues around our geography. The noise monitoring station on the Forest Hill/Dulwich boundary being an example of a response to that awareness.

A Sydenham Cllr had been approached but made no response to us.

JGD
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by JGD » 28 Jan 2019 14:01

JGD wrote:
24 Jan 2019 17:46
In a simplistic sense the answer is yes.

But we sense that this will require very careful scrutiny on the part of the several campaigning bodies of LCY's behaviours in the next rounds. We were alarmed at a very much earlier stage that LCY were promulgating a view that they might only consult with Tower Hamlets. Not anymore they don't.
Did I say all of this a few days ago ?

Unfortunately ThorNogson has reported this on another place:
SE London’s campaign group Plane Hell Action had a meeting with London City Airport’s CEO last week. They clearly do not want to listen or acknowledge that low altitude concentration of planes over London is not ok. Sobering reading. The only thing they understand is complaint letters. anyone else inclined to fire one off about their dismissive attitude to residents and our environment?
use the London City Airport Website: www.londoncityairport.com . Click on ‘corporate’ and then under Environment, click on ‘Complaints and Enquiries’.
Plane Hell Action – 27 Jan 19
https://planehellaction.org.uk/my-meeti ... y-airport/

This meeting would appear to have revealed that LCY have returned to their harder-line position, more akin to the one you describe Stuart.
Last edited by JGD on 28 Jan 2019 20:53, edited 2 times in total.

Razgriz_101
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by Razgriz_101 » 28 Jan 2019 18:50

There's a French expression that, sadly, describes protesting against such projects perfectly: "pisser dans un violon", or "to pee in a violin". It means that you're doing something difficult without the slightest chance to bring any form of result but your own exhaustion :lol:
These companies have long forgotten about the idea of listening to the people living there. Hell, lowering the quality of life may well be one of their goals, as it'll make real estate cheaper where the planes fly low.

JGD
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by JGD » 28 Jan 2019 20:58

Razgriz_101 wrote:
28 Jan 2019 18:50
There's a French expression that, sadly, describes protesting against such projects perfectly: "pisser dans un violon", or "to pee in a violin". It means that you're doing something difficult without the slightest chance to bring any form of result but your own exhaustion :lol:
Does this perchance have the same root as the Scot's expression "Peein' in yer ain wellies" ?

Not to forget that we can roast the respective airports' tootsies on the fire if the try to hood-wink us !

ThorNogson
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Re: Sydenham under a new flight path?

Post by ThorNogson » 31 Jan 2019 13:46

A few people have complained that Heathrow is not holding consultation events in SE London. I asked why and they said they were focused on areas where planes would be under 4000ft - which they say will not include us. Nevertheless, the area will see many more Heathrow planes on new flightpaths, as well as of course London City-bound planes.

Well now there is a public meeting with Heathrow, on Monday. Details are below.
There will be a meeting about the Heathrow Consultation focusing on the impact of the proposals on East, North East and South East London on Monday 4th Feb at 7pm.
It will be held in the Novotel London Blackfriars Hotel, 46 Blackfriars Rd, South Bank, London SE1 8NZ.
The venue is a short walk from Waterloo Station and from Southwark Underground Station and a few minutes more from London Bridge.
The meeting will be chaired by HACAN but senior people from Heathrow will be there to explain and answer questions on their consultation proposals.
It will be the only consultation meeting focusing specifically East, North East and South East London.
Here are two short briefings which HACAN has done you might find useful to have a look at before the meeting:
Here is the way the proposals could impact East and NE London: http://hacan.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/ ... London.pdf
Here is the way the proposals could impact SE London: http://hacan.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/ ... London.pdf

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