Aerial Photograph of the Croydon Canal!

The History of Sydenham from Cippenham to present day. Links to photos especially welcome!

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Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 1 Feb 2008 12:32

I've just proved that the 1843 map has certain features covered up near the Railway company's land plot. For starters, the railway line isn't shown. Secondly, it seems a portion of the canal did survive north of Honor Oak Park afterall, judging by the more accurate 1863 OS map; not only is it aligned with the southern remnants, and not only is it the correct width for the canal, but it's also captioned as "old canal"! Before we come onto verifying the initial direction of the canal upon leaving Honor Oak Park, I would like to discuss canal buildings around Forest Hill. Will has already mentioned a possible boat house in the Devonshire Road area, which I'm still researching. Another disputed building of canal origin is Canal House in the corner-most part of Stanstead Road. It's argued that the only buildings shown on the 1843 map around that stretch were the forerunners to the hotel/pub currently on their site, which is too far south of where Canal House was built. Well, if Canal House is on the 1860s map then it might have been there in the canal days. The 1843 map just isn't reliable enough around the area of the railway cutting, and the 1849 drainage map doesn't extend far enough to the north. This 1836 map shows 2 black dots left of the vertical stretch of Stanstead Road running along the railway:
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Also, can anyone explain what these 2 buildings are on the 1843 map?
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By the way, a couple at the Steve Grindlay talk suggested that there might be some canal remnants, of some sort, around the site of the Ambulance place in Davids Road; anyone confirm or deny this?

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 1 Feb 2008 14:17

Deptford Tithe Map here...
Image
None of the canal was left in water between New Cross and Brockley--damn! :twisted:

will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood » 8 Feb 2008 14:16

I've been talking to Tony, from the nature reserve at Devonshire rd, and it seems the persistent reed bed that runs from honor oak to forest hil does follow the route we've plotted for the canal.
I cant wait to check it out in person!

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 8 Feb 2008 19:58

I think the "Boat House" you refer to is none other than Forest Hill Wharf, mentioned oh so briefly in the Retracing canals book! It was said to be west of Devonshire Road area... I wonder if it was any of the buildings I've highlighted on the 1843 map? The official maps don't reveal any buildings along this stretch close to the canal. The main website doesn't even mention Forest Hill Wharf...

will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood » 8 Feb 2008 20:19

I dont know if there was a boat house, but its mentioned here;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/225 ... 1707_o.jpg

I really think its findable.

this is the bit I mean....
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2132/225 ... c55a_o.jpg

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 8 Feb 2008 20:35

Must be below this line...
Image

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 8 Feb 2008 20:41

No buildings around here at all on this map, yet I would have expected Eliza Place--atleat! I wonder what other buildings are missing from this map...
Image

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 8 Feb 2008 20:50

Very annoying... :evil: Here's the 1820 Greenwood map:
Image

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 8 Feb 2008 21:00

Nice map here for Penge...
Image

Steve Grindlay
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Post by Steve Grindlay » 8 Feb 2008 22:47

Falkor wrote:I think the "Boat House" you refer to is none other than Forest Hill Wharf... I wonder if it was any of the buildings I've highlighted on the 1843 map?
No, it wasn't. Plot 1912a was a house and garden occupied by Thomas Trinder (really!) who had market gardens on plot 1912. He was there from before 1829 to after 1848.

Plot 1916 was a house called The Grange and was occupied by Alexander Rowland 1843-1847. He was a perfumier who produced Rowland's Macassar Oil, a Victorian version of Brylcreem. This house was occupied by Edward Howis from the 1790s until about 1817. Although he was an oil and colourman, not a vicar, I believe he is referred to in Will's (unreferenced) link above. I understand that buildings marked in red on the tithe map were houses and those marked in grey were outbuildings.

Maps were generally produced for a particular purpose and, when interpreting them, it is important to bear that purpose in mind. The 1819 Enclosure map was not concerned with buildings, only boundaries, so buildings may or may not be shown. The Dartmouth Arms, for example, is not shown although it certainly existed by 1814.

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 8 Feb 2008 23:24

Thanks for clearing some of that up, Steve. The Grange seems set quite far back from the road. I reckon that enclosure map might have been surveyed much earlier before publication. I'm sure I heard the enclosure process was started around 1809, 1810 or 1812, so that might have been when the map was surveyed. I know the Wells Park Road buildings are on there, and it seems strange for them to miss out other buildings even if their priority was boundaries, so the best explanation is the earlier date based on what I know. Anyway, the wharf still remains a mystery, and there is no sign of it on any maps. I think Canal House needs more investigation... a collection of buildings is shown on the site in 1862 (Stanford map). Is there any half-decent scale maps (1840s or 1850s) for this area?
"Once west of Devonshire Road again there was a small wharf - Mr. Hawels' Wharf - to serve the aforementioned houses on the hill. Both wharf and houses were at the northern extremity of Sydenham Common"
How do the authors of the Retracing Canals book know this?? What evidence do they have? :?

will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood » 9 Feb 2008 08:55

"Once west of Devonshire Road again there was a small wharf - Mr. Hawels' Wharf - to serve the aforementioned houses on the hill. Both wharf and houses were at the northern extremity of Sydenham Common"
also;
'south of it, on the border of sydenham common is another one,(inlet) marked Howies or Howls, who was a proprietor and entitled to a pleasure boat.....'
(from the Ken White book)

...so it could be seen more as a quay for a personal pleasure boat.

the inlet to the north, which I think should still be findable, is around 30 feet square, whereas the southern one, mentioned above, appears to be much less than 20 feet, in a kind of bay shape, so not much more than a mooring, really.

the Northern one is big enough to be a small coal wharf, but ther edont seem to be any connecting roads etc, so it would have been totally private, and probably dug after the canal was opened.

it doesnt really make sense.

Steve, do you have any other maps of the devonshire road area showing the embankment....it seems even OS cartographers didnt bother mapping features inside the railway land.

(and sorry for not crediting my sources...I'll try harder in that respect.)

also. I think the 'Canal' house in Stanstead rd is more likely connected with the railway, or the woodyard that used to occupy that bend in the road, on the embankment...(behind the big white gates)

(does anyone have any images of this area, or Eliza place?
the area where the flats are, at the top of rockobourne rd, was bombed in the war, so there were prefabs there for a while...)

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 10 Feb 2008 02:07

No old photos for the top end of Stanstead Road AFAIK... The only one of Eliza place is from the railway cutting illustration (see Steve's slideshow).

will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood » 10 Feb 2008 07:41

...as for Forest Hill Wharf...
I have a feeling the only real contender for this title would be the widened area at the bottom of Sydenham Park..
A perfect size and shape for a wharf....you could only tell by the buildings nearby, but it does seem unusual that forest hill did NOT have a wharf of some kind...and this huge wharf like area needs explanation, anyway...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2367/225 ... a29f_o.jpg

Falkor
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Post by Falkor » 18 Mar 2008 21:45

Check these out...
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Image

Image

FergussonFamily
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Question re: Canal

Post by FergussonFamily » 19 Mar 2008 10:57

I heard a caller on the Robert Elm's show on BBC Radio London, some time ago. They said that the reason for the strange tower at Forest Hill Railway Station was that it once held some kind of equipment for the locks on the canal - the building being built earlier than the railway line.

Is that true? Does anyone know anymore?

I've seen many canal locks, and none of them needed a large tower to house equipment to open the lock gates. I guess it could be some kind of pumping station, but I thought the canal was topped up with water from South Norwood Lake (and that was its purpose for being built) so I can't see the need for a pumping station at Forest Hill.

It's something that has been bothering me since I heard it.

will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood » 19 Mar 2008 12:23

I heard a caller on the Robert Elm's show on BBC Radio London, some time ago. They said that the reason for the strange tower at Forest Hill Railway Station was that it once held some kind of equipment for the locks on the canal - the building being built earlier than the railway line.

Is that true? Does anyone know anymore?
No. Its not true at all.
It was built long after the canal, and after the pumping station for the atmospheric railway.
The nearest locks were at Honor Oak, as you'll see in this and the other canal threads.

heres all the info you need:
http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... 716ad06b9e

FergussonFamily
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Post by FergussonFamily » 19 Mar 2008 12:45

Thanks, the pictures tell all. It's just what remains of a clocktower after WWII bombing.

videosoul
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Re: Aerial Photograph of the Croydon Canal!

Post by videosoul » 28 Dec 2016 19:18

Wow, amazing work guys!

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