BBC Question Time

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sean
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BBC Question Time

Post by sean »

you have to watch this, the power of editing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk
nork1
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Post by nork1 »

:D Ain't far from the truth! Here's the remixed version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnt-7VoHKfw
Eagle
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Post by Eagle »

It is easy to be sarcastic
I would never vote for BNP but many millions like me are fed up that the mainstream parties will not halt immigration or even discuss it.
Although I will never vote for them until this matter is seriously looked at by the mainstream parties, I believe the BNP vote will grow and grow.
Recent figures this week confirmed we are one of the most crowded countries in the world and importing food is going to become more and more expensive in years to come.
Trawlerman
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Post by Trawlerman »

Verrrry amusing Youtube clips. But, I see Eagle's point.

BNP policies need to be analyzed and dealt with. Slogans and mockery on their own might be good for a laugh but they won't win the political battle.
Eagle
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Post by Eagle »

Thanks Trawlerman
I am amazed about the number of people I meet who are concerned about the points raised and the fact our so called parties treat them with contempt.
I accept most are 60 and over but they are the ones that vote most.
Just ganging up on Griffen , especially so called impartial chairman , will not address the issues or issue that concerns these many people.
Trawlerman
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Post by Trawlerman »

These are serious matters. And humour can be used seriously [There really is no contradiction here...Rory Bremner does it very well]

The issues need to be properly tackled. They just won't go away.

I think I remember once [maybe I'm wrong] Thatcher responding to a member of the public's question with [and I paraphrase my mis-remembering]... 'How dare you ask me that'...Or words to that effect.

Now, we won't get anywhere with some the issues that that confront us with a similar response ...Or by pointedly ignoring the several elephants in the sitting room.
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

Eagle wrote: Recent figures this week confirmed we are one of the most crowded countries in the world and importing food is going to become more and more expensive in years to come.
Hmm, I think the report was 'one of the most crowded countries in Europe.'

England has 395 people per square KM.
Holland has 393 people per square KM.
Malta has 1,277 people per square KM.
Guernsey 843 people per square KM.
Monaco has 16,398 people per square KM.
Germany has 232 people per square KM.
The UK in total has 242 people per square KM.
The UK comes 52nd on the list of most densely populated nations.

We don't make the top 10 fastest growing nations.
Afghanistan has more migrant workers than the UK (again we don't make any top 10 lists.)

Just wanted to give that statement some perspective. It's actually quite difficult to get a visa here, it's not a free for all and it's tightening up.
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

As for the BNP, I think Nick Griffin and the BNP are scum hiding behind a thin veneer respectability by pretending to be a political party.

After seeing the show I think it was a mistake to constantly attack Nick Griffin in the way they did. He was helpless, pathetic. in some eyes it made him a figure of pity. They should have conducted the program in the usual manor and let Griffin commend on topics and show his true colours. It wasn't a balanced debate and unfortunately I think they may have played into the hands of the BNP. This is despite N.G. making himself look completely out of depth, unprepared and ignorant on national TV.

All in all, a big mistake. It should have been a real debate. It ended up being the 'look at us, we all hate this racist we invited on our program' show.
Eagle
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Post by Eagle »

Firstly comments re population. We are talking about the SE of England which was mentioned but the poster conveniently forgot.
The places he mentioned apart from Germany and The Netherlands etc , as he knows , are hardly countries at all.
The UK itself only produced about 50% of its food. All experts say food will dramtically increase in price world wide in short and medium term.
With our declining exports how are we going to pay for these imports.
I am amazed there are people on this forum who seem to be happy with an even larger population.
I believe we are now 62 million going on 70 so HMG says. In WW2 we were about 42 million and still had to cut down on food( mind you that would benefit a lot of the overweight ) and import all we could. An ideal for UK would be about 30 million but I appreciate that is not reality.
We should certainly for a fixed time ban all immigration and only give child benefit for 2 children.
China have real guts with their 1 child policy. Experts say would have been another 300 million plus if not introduced.
I doubt if China would give a welcome to all these immigrants . EVen underpopulated countries like Australia ( 100 times less crowded than UK )
has a very strict immigration policy
Christhom
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Post by Christhom »

The BNP leadership are almost certainly a nasty bunch. However they are just a pimple. Its the pus beneath which is a concern. Regardless of all the facts re pop density etc (I doubt if 'all' experts agree. They never do) It feels / seems more and more crowded here.One reason may be that our pop seems ever more varied. A field of multi-hued flowers seems more full than a monoculture. These are the perceptions the BNP relies upon.
TheAustralian example is not the best as it was based upon the 'white Australia ' policy which is innaplicable to the UK. According to this week's The Economist even Australia has 14,000 illegals.Without turning the UK into a walled off camp it seems almost impossible to stop people getting here. The only answer may be to improve conditions in their native countries and that needs world changing co-ordination. They are here and more are coming. We had all better get used to a GMO vegetarian lifestyle !
I was dismayed by the idiotic tactics used against Griffin over his bbcqt invite. The hysterical overreaction turned this lumpen bully boy into the most significant and divisive figure in UK politics for a week.Also another excuse to fight the police in front of the cameras. The same mentality that asserts trashing MacDonalds will stop climate change. I speak from ecperience. In the '70's and '80's I was one of them. It does not and should not work in a democracy.
The election of Mrs Thatcher helped stem the rise of the NF. I wonder if Cameron's will do for the BNP ?
Welcome to Lewishan west and Penge !
Trawlerman
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Post by Trawlerman »

'Pimple & Pus'... an interesting comparison / metaphor.
Though I think the 'head' is a bit more important in this instance.
Nazis would agree ... Hitler was vital to that particular tumour.

.............................................................................................

Take care ... This is not merely about population density. Some people genuinely do feel like strangers in their own land. This is not a racist rant, it is merely a fact.
When confronted by a similar point, Mr Straw just chose to ignore it... at his peril.
...........................................................................................

The questions that the bigots ask will not go away just because bigots ask them. Sometime they may have some core of truth. Sometimes.
Shouting down these questions doesn't make them go away or invalidate them.
Treat unreasonable people reasonably and you may make them more reasonable. Sounds good?
Perhaps I'm just naive?
...........................................................................
Christhom
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Post by Christhom »

I agree. The politicians etc who make the policy dont live at our level. The British are neither uniquely tolerant or intolerant. Adjusting to the arrival of lots of people from other cultural traditions is easy when you can ignore the negative aspects. I don't think its racist as plenty of black Britons seem to feel the same. I dont like admitting it but there are times;on the bus, in LiDl etc when I feel like the people around me represent every accent but my own. The transition to a multicultural society will never be without tensions and personally I think we've made good progress but, as you say ignoring the tensions won't end them. It just opens the door to hate pedlars. Sadly I have no solutions but I really hope there are some.
tulse hill terry
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Post by tulse hill terry »

As to populations, density, particularly urban, would be more of an issue surely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ci ... population
simon
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Post by simon »

Good post Terry. I see we're roughly the same in pop and area as Bogota. Has anyone from here been and did they think it crowded?
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

No, not Bogota, but then again I don't think New York is, although it depends where you go.

Or mexico city aside from the main square, but then again it depends where you go.

Or Sao Paolo, but again, it depends where you go.

I don't think london is overcrowded. Certain parts are, but others aren't.

We import most of our food because market forces dictate that it's cheaper or we just don't grow certain foods out of season. That's why your tinned beef or ready meal beef comes from Brazil in huge container ships. Tea, coffee, spices, tuna, most wine, bananas, pineapples etc are not widely available here. They have to be imported. My parents remember when they first saw a banana (oo-er)! The British empire was based on searching for tea, spices etc, i.e. Imported goods.
Eagle
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Post by Eagle »

Just because we have been lucky in the past to have plenty of cheap food to import does not alter the facts that things are now changing.
Food will become more scarce and what a surprise like Oil when it becomes scarce more expensive.
With our limited manufacturing and liking for manufacturing imports how are we going to afford the food in years to come.
I am at a loss to understand why this is being dismissed and we open our doors to everyone who wants to come here and presumably eat in years to come.
Trawlerman
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Post by Trawlerman »

Food security is important.
EU helps here, I believe...
Or UKIP? Don't think so...
We could probably grow more...
Very complex issues...
Any ideas...?
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

Eagle wrote:]we open our doors to everyone who wants to come here and presumably eat in years to come.
We don't 'open our doors to anyone who wants to come here'. There is a points system, similar to the one in Australia. It's not easy to come here, although if you want to fill a skill gap like nursing it's easier.

I have a lot of friends from overseas. Trust me, what you read in 'the mail' ain't the whole truth.
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

We are paid to plough food into fields, destroy milk to keep prices high.

Where in the UK will you grow coffee? Tea? Bananas? Oranges? Rice? Cotton?

Every country has certain things they HAVE to import.

We also export food. If you take away what we export from what we import, then we only import 20% of our food, net.
Christhom
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Post by Christhom »

Amidst the many podcasts I listen to I heard one recently asserting that current agripractice can feed 10bn people. In many areas the problem is poor infrastructure (transport,storage etc). The truly scary looming problem appears to be degradation and exhaustion of groundwater.
Sooner or later we will surely need to address the issue of GMO seriously. Maybe the Uk and London specifically aren't hideously overcrowded but with plans to build 3,000,000 new homes over the next decade....?
As with so many issues it is how they are perceived to be rather than how they are that seems to carry more weight. There always seem to be crises which elbow out discussion of small, local but important topics. The small pieces of the jigsaw are not seen as much as the image they contribute to.
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