Rebuilding Crystal Palace

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Chazza
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Rebuilding Crystal Palace

Post by Chazza »

Did anyone else catch the "Rebuild Crystal Palace" pitch with Terry Tibbs on Facejacker? Just wondering if the bloke making the pitch, oblivious to the fact that he's being wound up, is known round these parts and still actively trying to get funding for the project?
ALIB
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Post by ALIB »

i think the guy was only after a £million and was going to have the Palace manufactured in Germany.
I think that cost for the whole project is unrealistically low.
The cost of getting Palanning Permission would be unknown. A guess around £300,000 - £1M
Ground investigation works : £20,000
Ground works: £100,000
Design works: £100,000
Manufacture/production: £3M
Transportation: £200,000
Construction: £300,000

The costs i have put are guesstimates, but there would need to be contingency costs of around £2M added to this (at the low end) and even more if the gardens and water features were to be installed.

Also he didn't say where he was going to site the Palace, except that it wasn't Hyde Park.

Methinks he was a bit of a well-meaning eccentric. Though i must admit i would luuuurrrrrvvv the Crystal Palace to be re-built.
JeeBee
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Post by JeeBee »

I think a good start would be sprucing up the terraced gardens in Crystal Palace Park, and restoring them to the original look and feel. Maybe with some sports activities (rounders/softball/baseball pitches, grass tennis courts, etc), or actual gardens on the flat areas.

Maybe a scaled down Crystal Palace could be built eventually, like the middle section only? It might end up looking like a glorified giant greenhouse though... And revamping the underpass under Crystal Palace Park Parade that used to lead to the old Upper Station in Crystal Palace...
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

I like the little section of the palace that has been put on the top section by John Greatrex. I think it's a shame that the palace isn't acknowledged in any way.

I think it would be great to expand the project that has already been started and add more parts of the palace (just one level in height) so that it's footprint it marked out on the top site with information inside showing what was in each section, with bits of the history. Perhaps some bits could have creepers growing up it so it feels like it's been there for years like the concrete sphinx's peering out of the brambles.

This could be a multi use area used for fairs, farmers markets, general markets, flower markets, exhibitions etc.

I think any attempt to recreate a smaller version of different version of the palace would diminish it's memory. The fact that most people don't even know exactly where the palace stood or just how big it was or that there even WAS a palace that was the beginning of modern architecture as we know it is simply wrong. But whatever is done has to be done with sensitivity, style and respect to the original palace and the park as it now stands.

There is a certain mystical charm the area has and I think it's partly because it is in ruin. If the palace was still there today I doubt we would be talking about it in the way we do.
Duke of Clarence
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Post by Duke of Clarence »

The Crystal Palace existed in another era when the surrounding towns and city housed a fraction of the current population and cars. For a brief moment it was a spectacular building but it soon became a huge white or should I say grey (the history books record that it was never crystal clear as all that glass + all that smog=grey) elephant. The Crystal Palace burned down in November 1936 and nothing has been built there since.

Terry Tibbs asked John Greatrex what he would have in his palace; a gift shop, a Tesco Local, a carphone warehouse? All suggestions were eagerly received by John, whose main focus was getting funding for his building, what would go in it was an afterthought. However what would go in it is key to the building's success. A successful commercial build on the hilltop of Crystal Palace Park would need to attract millions of visitors a year to be financially viable.

Be warned, there's a new proposal being prepared for a new Crystal Palace by a retired architect and the owners of a second hand shop on Church Road. They've got a poster of it up in the window of their shop, C-Space. It's a huge overbearing pastiche, one part retail (the Glades on steroids) one part 250 room 4*hotel & conference centre and the third part a mixed leisure complex (pay to play zone), a 1,000 space car park (all existing car parks will be closed and turfed over so all users of park will have to pay to park in the multiplex carpark or use surrounding residential roads) the Italian Terraces will be made into 2 athletic tracks and tennis courts. It is unclear where the funds for this are coming from and I suspect the architect behind it is, like John Greatrex, a well meaning eccentric but i do wish he'd leave the park alone.

The leisure zone alone is expected to attract millions of annual trips, like wise the in-park shopping mall. Let's say the entire complex generates 8,000,000 visitors per year that works out at an extra 23,809 daily car journeys if every visitor drove. It would be fair to say that only about 50% of visitors would drive so a more realistic figure would be 11,904 cars per day travelling to and from Crystal Palace but then we need to factor in the staff cars and the convoys of HGV delivery lorries. This will have an enormous impact on the major routes into CP and as the car park entrance will be where the Caravan Club is now meaning Westwood Hill, Sydenham High Street, College Road, Crystal Palace Park Road, Penge High Street, The Parade and the Triangle would be main feeder routes to this new multiplex. The hilltop and Italian Terraces will be lost to a massive commercial overbuild and the park will loose a third of it's green space.
bigbadwolf
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Post by bigbadwolf »

I'm sorry, but that simply can't be allowed to happen. Not only would the whole endeavour be a cringeworthy homage to something that is best preserved by local legend, but the Italian Terraces are where I like to go and smoke a joint whilst taking in a view I'll never tire of.

All joking aside, Crystal Palace Park is a local asset and should be revered as such. And I think they'd be better off using any available funds to retain the atmosphere of Victorian elegance by returning some of the statues to their former glory.
JeeBee
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Post by JeeBee »

I've said before that I would rather the terraces were restored and repaired than anything majorly distracting done to them.

I could abide a couple of tennis / badminton courts, as they're flat, as long as they weren't expensive - the park should be for everyone.

There's an athletics stadium for running tracks! If you want another one, re-tarmac the top terrace which has crumbling pavement with that red running track stuff, and paint lines. After you've repaired the terraces and removed the "temporary" barriers.

Otherwise, maybe some Italian style gardens would be nice. And a cafe on the top part (near the museum?). And restoring the passage under CPPP.
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

John Greatex went on the show to get publicity. He wasn't seriously suggesting a Tesco metro go there.

John Greatex isn't actually suggesting rebuilding the whole crystal palace. He asked for £1 million. You couldn't rebuild Ulysses garden shed for that! He went on the program for publicity. The program was a joke, John went along with it. It got people talking about the palace.

Everyone get's the placement of the palace wrong. It sat very close to the road. You can actually trace the footprint of the palace very closely if you know where to look. It sat quite far back from the terraces. It's certainly not 1/3 of the park, far from it. The metal uprights are still there in the ground, 8 ' apart, 8" wide for all to see.

I'm against Ray Halls 3/4 size palace as it will diminish the memory of it, but the palace should be remembered in some way. It is one of the most important buildings in history. It gave the area it's name. The place where it used to stand is full of the rubble of the thousands of homes destroyed in WW2. The fact that hardly anyone seems to know any of this is a shame.

Small fact: Did you know that the firm who brought the palace from Hyde Park to Sydenham/Penge was Pickfords.
Duke of Clarence
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Post by Duke of Clarence »

Thanks for the heads up regarding John Greatrex's intentions Leenewham.

The following link will take you to the Facejacker clip

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/face ... od#3071056

Forward to 7.05 mins to go straight to his interview with Terry Tibbs. It's Terry who makes suggestions of what could go inside his palace and John who, all due respect to him as he held his own very well considering he hadn't realised he was being spoofed, appeared to accept Tezza's proposals.

It is good to hear that John does not support the Ray Hall scheme either as that proposes to have a lot more in it than a gift shop, Tesco Local and a Carphone Warehouse :roll:
simon
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Post by simon »

leenewham wrote: You couldn't rebuild Ulysses garden shed for that! He went on the program for publicity.
Ulysses hasn't got a shed. In fact he hasn't even got a garden.
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

Yes, I know! He's a flat kinda guy as he told me (so he still reads this stuff).
andreas
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Post by andreas »

bigbadwolf wrote: the whole endeavour [would] be a cringeworthy homage to something that is best preserved by local legend.
I think this is a great phrase to describe the New Crystal Palace proposals. If anything at all is needed on the top site, it must be something which comes from the local community rather than is imposed upon it.
Duke of Clarence
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Post by Duke of Clarence »

bigbadwolf wrote:I'm sorry, but that simply can't be allowed to happen. Not only would the whole endeavour be a cringeworthy homage to something that is best preserved by local legend, but the Italian Terraces are where I like to go and smoke a joint whilst taking in a view I'll never tire of.

All joking aside, Crystal Palace Park is a local asset and should be revered as such. And I think they'd be better off using any available funds to retain the atmosphere of Victorian elegance by returning some of the statues to their former glory.
Couldn't agree more bigbadwolf. CPP is a local asset and should not be sold off to the highest bidder. There should be some sort of public body that oversees the flogging of public landmarks and buildings to ensure that they remain within public service and not fall into the hands of corporate companies, commercial or religious.

Just look what happened to the only public entertainment venue in CP, the old Gala Bingo Hall on Church Road, when it was left to market forces to decide. City Screens (Ritzy, Clapham & Greenwhich Picture Houses) were outbid (by tiny amount) by notorious multimillion pound Prosperity Gospel Church, Kingsway International Christian Centre, KICC. CS would have run a small 4 screen cinema for the whole community regardless of faith and sexuality. The KICC, who do not have a presence within CP, will be taking the building out of local community use to open it up to their very large congregation (10,000) from miles away; Home Counties & South West London & Lewisham.

Back to the Italian Terraces Wolfy, they do indeed offer great views and I bet they are a good place to enjoy a bit of huff and puff. How about this I'll bring a vat of Malmsey wine (my fave) to go with your blow!
bigbadwolf
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Post by bigbadwolf »

Although I would be lying if I said I wasn't curious as to what it would be like to walk around inside the Crystal Palace, In my opinion, the structure would just be too big. It would loom over the surrounding area and dominate the local infrastructure.

It's a lovely park that attracts plenty of visitors with both its simple elegance and the legend of the magnificant building that once housed all the curiosities of the empire that when destroyed by fire, its death throws could be seen from all four corners of a weeping capital.

In other words - just let sleeping dogs lie.
digime2007
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Post by digime2007 »

I agree. Never liked the the whole 'master plan' idea either.

I like the park the way it is. A bit of extra investment wouldn't go a miss and I'd like to see the museum expanded but apart from that it's a great place.
leenewham
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Post by leenewham »

I think the palace has to be acknowledged in some way. The terraces should be restored and the footprint mapped out in some way, at least in part so people actually know where it was. Nearly everyone gets it wrong.

The bottom of the park is great, but where the terraces are and that horrible concrete raised walkway that goes past the sports centre are awful. The masterplan for that area was good and it would be a shame to lose that.
andreas
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Post by andreas »

I've just come across this: does anyone know what it means in plain English?

http://www.newcrystalpalace.org/news-de ... icle_id=10

A taster of of the summer update by Ray Hall
21 Apr 2010 by Ray Hall


An update is planned this summer, but as a taster for what will be explained then, I would like to share one particular theme with you now.

As many members of the Crystal Palace & Norwood Chamber of Commerce will know, it is now almost 40 years since I first concluded - as a student writing my final's thesis as an Architect & Planner - that the damage done to our environment is so severe that 'our Earth is dying'.

I will be quite open with you and say that it brought me to tears: so tragic was the prospect before us all.

My view has not changed since and those tears have not gone away. What has changed is the rising global awareness that our home planet is in serious trouble, requiring fully coordinated and determined remedial action.

You will see that a wide variety of uses are proposed for the New Crystal Palace and for a transformed Crystal Palace Park. I am determined that all of those uses will be part of one strategy clearly aimed at showcasing how we - as a local and global community - can move from being one facing an end to one living a new beginning.

A lot is happening in the background that I cannot explain just yet. I look forward to be able to do so more fully later this year.

If there are any questions or concerns, do let me know. I will then seek to answer them as fully as I can at this stage in a long ongoing process’
I trust this is helpful in the meantime.

Appreciations as always,

Ray Hall
New Crystal Palace Ltd.
Duke of Clarence
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Post by Duke of Clarence »

Sorry Andreas, can't help you with the meaning of that twaddle but o dear me, what on earth is Ray Hall on? LSD? Bleeding Hearts? Meow Meow? or just common a garden Happy Pills? Only a truly twisted or deranged mind could fit in the concept of a massive trip generating build on parkland as being "part of one strategy clearly aimed at showcasing how we - as a local and global community - can move from being one facing an end to one living a new beginning." The only thing beginning here is "The Horror".

Just checked out the link and saw that there were apparently 4 public consultations. I was only aware of one and that was hardly a public consultation, more a display of poor quality computer graphics of Ray's palace held in the junk shop of the scheme's promoters. The questionnaires only recorded support and were heavily loaded as they were written by the promoters for example:
How much do you want Ray Hall's New Crystal Place
a) a lot
b) a very lot
c) more than life itself
bigbadwolf
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Post by bigbadwolf »

As many members of the Crystal Palace & Norwood Chamber of Commerce will know, it is now almost 40 years since I first concluded - as a student writing my final's thesis as an Architect & Planner - that the damage done to our environment is so severe that 'our Earth is dying'.

I will be quite open with you and say that it brought me to tears: so tragic was the prospect before us all.

My view has not changed since and those tears have not gone away. What has changed is the rising global awareness that our home planet is in serious trouble, requiring fully coordinated and determined remedial action.

You will see that a wide variety of uses are proposed for the New Crystal Palace and for a transformed Crystal Palace Park. I am determined that all of those uses will be part of one strategy clearly aimed at showcasing how we - as a local and global community - can move from being one facing an end to one living a new beginning
.


Or, in other words:


Hi,

As many of you will remember it's nearly 40 years since while at university, my friends and I became involved in the cultivation, and subsequently, copious consumption of weapons-grade marijuana.

During this phase of paranoid enlightenment I experienced an awakening to the impact of global warming whilst watching StarWars. My room-mate, Rupert, was passing me the bong when it slipped from his fingers and spilled ash all over the carpet. This portent was the first of many.

During the night I endured a dream (vision) whereby I had awoken to a world carpeted in ash and ravaged by nuclear hurricanes. I wandered about the barren landscape in my pyjamas, supported by a shepherds crook - that I found, somewhere - and climbed the summit of Anerley hill whence I came across an oasis of fertility. Crystal Palace.

I was awoken by the smell of burning toast but the horrors of my dream remain with me to this day.

So, earthlings, let us join hands and redevelop the site of the former Crystal Palace into our own self-sustaining sanctuary pod and environmental fallout shelter where we shall carry mother nature's seed into the new dawn.

One Love,

Ray Hall.
Duke of Clarence
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Post by Duke of Clarence »

I posted the following on another forum when I heard about New Crystal Palace Ltd's claims that the whole community were behind their plans to turn "Central South London" into a global attraction. Just to be absolutely clear it is a spoof. Do not contact your local Cllrs or MPs. Do not call Bromley's Central South London Planning Department:

Plans to turn Crystal Palace into the Nuremberg of South London have been unveiled today at the RIBA HQ in Portland Place. Esteemed German architect Helmut Von Schumacher, sole director of leading development company Ich bin Fenster (IbF) plans to build a giant glass Zeppelin on the highest point in South London.

The Zeppelin will stand on ten 20m high steel plinths and will be seen by the whole of London and parts of Kent and Surrey. The steel will be commissioned from the recently mothballed Corus plant in Teesside thus saving the entire region from financial ruin and safeguarding tens of thousands of jobs.

This news has been met with caution in the north-east region where the Evening Gazette leads with pictures of Von Schumacher in military uniform sporting a monocle and nasty fencing scar. The headline reads; “Kraut Out!” The Teesiders, a tight knit bunch, have not forgotten the war. Local worker, Johnny Ardknuckle, pointed at Von Schumacher’s picture and in a German accent poked fun at the plans;

“Zis vill never get through planning. Eet is total lunacy. Zee people of Crystal Palace vill not let zis appen. If zay do zen I av one zing to zay; for you Tommy ze vor may be over but ze horror has just begun….”

IbF found the Teesside hostilities puzzling. A spokes person said, “This is a genuine offer. We have plans for more zeppelins in key positions the length and breadth of the UK. With our German technology we need the best steel in the world.”

Helmut Von Schumacher also has plans to take over the Italian Terraces and reclaim them for the good people of Crystal Palace by installing rows of wooden chalets that will be built into the landscape and from which a wide range of traditional Bavarian, Pomeranian and German products will be on sale to the Damen und Herren und die Kinder of the community. When asked about the inspiration for his scheme Herr Schumucher says;

“You know those dystopian films that speculate about what England would have been like if the Germans had won the war? Well I think about this a lot and when I heard about the Italian move to make Crystal Palace the Venice of the South, I thought nein I can make it into a theme park. I will base it on the original German Winter Wonderland, in London’s Hyde Park as that is precisely what occupied Britain would have felt like if the EU had turned out to be the Volksunion.”

Von Shumucher plans to extend the market by bull-dozing the Triangle once planning permission is granted. The area will then be renamed Nuremburg Palast and an entire town of traditional German houses will be built within 40 days, see link: www.trekearth.com/.../Eisenach/photo409905.htm

Representatives from the Global Destination Party, GDP, an organisation formed from local supporters of this international scheme, say they welcome Herr Schumucher’s vision for the area,

“Helmut is such a nice man and these plans, a culmination of his life’s work, will make this town a global destination. It will bring jobs and happiness for so many people and will inspire young people put down their knives and guns. Helmut has printed a new currency for the town, it will be called the Reichtoken. All transactions will in future be conducted in Reichtokens with the exchange of Reichtokens being: 1 R is equal to 2Euros or 4 British Pounds.”

When asked about local opposition to the scheme the GDP ambassadors began to chant “Heil Helmut!” before marching off in the direction the proposed Zeppelin site.

A spokesperson for the Crystal Palace Resistance, CPR, a newly founded group of local activists and objectors to the scheme, has issued the following statement:

“Never before in the history of Crystal Palace has such a threat to the identity and character of the area been identified. Now is the time to stand up and fight for this town. We will fight this madness on the terraces, we will fight it on the Triangle, we will fight it on the Hill of the Gipsies. There will be no surrender. We will never, never, never, give in. Power to the People!”

Despite the mounting opposition Helmut Von Schumacher is confident of cross border support, “ The overwhelming majority of the community are behind this scheme.” He claims. “The objectors, what do they know? Who are they to disagree? They are just an intolerant, noisy, minority whose bickering will be silenced once my Kommandant has closed down their means of communication.”

IbF have set up their UK office at no 25 Church Road. When asked about the legal status of using a D2 building for A2 services they declined to comment but referred us to their landlord Pastor Schnitzel. Unfortunately I could only get through to the Pastor’s voice mail that had amplified pop music playing a tune that sounded strangely like Tomorrow Belongs to Me.
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