Sticky music thread

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Robin Orton
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Robin Orton » 22 Jan 2014 22:08

Interesting. The first time I've heard any of Glass's symphonies. Minimalism masquerading as Sibelius?

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 22 Jan 2014 23:25

Nope, can't stand it.

You can stick it up your Philip Glass.

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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 23 Jan 2014 15:31

No, I can actually hear why he was once called the worst composer in the world.

The problem with these types of composers is that really they do not have what it takes so chose to write basic phrases with limited musical expression because they lack true understanding of each instruments voice.

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 23 Jan 2014 17:24

Fair enough, I used to drop acid and watch the landscape channel.

Robin Orton
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Robin Orton » 23 Jan 2014 17:49

I've just listened to this Glass piece again, and I must say I found it a bit boring. It seems to me to be very backward-looking compared with some of his earlier works (I'm thinking particularly of Akhnaten which really bowled me over when I heard it at the London Coliseum twenty years ago.) In this piece he seems to me to be trying to reproduce the formal structure of late romantic symphonies. Brahms, Mahler, Bruckner and then, in the twentieth century, e.g. Sibelius, Elgar, Nielsen and Walton arguably said everything that can be said in that particular genre. Minimalism opened up new horizons, but Glass seems to me to have abandoned minimalism here.

Tim Lund
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Tim Lund » 24 Jan 2014 09:20

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC57z-oDPLs[/youtubes]

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO8C9fqC3uk[/youtubes]

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0raNP4q8WA[/youtubes]

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYKVb7T1n2I[/youtubes]

And now for something completely different

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VcQVNw2w78[/youtubes]

BTW - I thought this thread was mainly for music, so I've posted thoughts linked to these here

Robin Orton
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Robin Orton » 24 Jan 2014 10:01

I haven't got time to listen to all these now, Tim. You should space them put a bit.

Tim Lund
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Tim Lund » 24 Jan 2014 12:57

Robin Orton wrote:I haven't got time to listen to all these now, Tim. You should space them put a bit.
Go for EmmyLou singing Boulder to Birmingham. Shows it's still worth listening to those who's hair has turned grey.

Here she is when younger

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG1qTFZSiAM[/youtubes]

And here's the late lamented Norman Geras with a guide to her ouevre

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 14:00

ELH's guitarist is phenomenally good, an Englishman. None other than Mr Albert Lee.


[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PscAZyOMGiA[/youtubes]

Robin Orton
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Robin Orton » 24 Jan 2014 15:56

Tim Lund wrote: Go for EmmyLou singing Boulder to Birmingham. Shows it's still worth listening to those who's hair has turned grey.
OK. My hair (what's left of it) is well grey and I've listened to it. Left me cold, I'm afraid.Could you explain to me what's good about it? It sounds indistinguishable to me from lots of other songs in this sort of genre (what is it?) which I've sort of half listened to in the past. Might it help if I could decipher the words from her mumbling? And I wish she wouldn't keep closing her eyes in that REALLY IRRITATING way.

I turned to your friend Norman Geras for illumination, but in vain. All I got was
If you don't own this, then listen, forget it, you ain't no kind of a dude. Your life may be rich in a thousand other ways, but is also hopelessly impoverished. Rectify the matter. Soon.
Shame, one of my lifelong ambitions is to be a dude.

Tim Lund
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Tim Lund » 24 Jan 2014 17:40

Robin Orton wrote:
Tim Lund wrote: Go for EmmyLou singing Boulder to Birmingham. Shows it's still worth listening to those who's hair has turned grey.
OK. My hair (what's left of it) is well grey and I've listened to it. Left me cold, I'm afraid.Could you explain to me what's good about it?
Probably not. Years ago someone recommended this book to me

Image
First published in 1959, this original study argues that the main characteristic of music is that it expresses and evokes emotion, and that all composers whose music has a tonal basis have used the same, or closely similar, melodic phrases, harmonies, and rhythms to affect the listener in the same ways.
On Amazon here

but I didn't really understand it, and I gave my copy to a young man studying composition, who was very interested by it. He was also intrigued that I mentioned the grave introduction to this of Telemann

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMpzPMkrALM[/youtubes]

as something which, for me, makes instant emotional connection, in the same way that EmmyLou does.
Robin Orton wrote: It sounds indistinguishable to me from lots of other songs in this sort of genre (what is it?) which I've sort of half listened to in the past. Might it help if I could decipher the words from her mumbling? .
Sorry if you didn't get the words. I have the same problem with Palestrina,

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n8XdKkrqgo[/youtubes]

Tallis

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD3S28CHNIM[/youtubes]

and Byrd,

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo3GYkAgylQ[/youtubes]

not least because they are in a foreign language, but I still like them - without always being able to tell the difference
Robin Orton wrote: And I wish she wouldn't keep closing her eyes in that REALLY IRRITATING way.
Just let yourself bliss out to it, and you'll find your eyes closing in a similar way
Robin Orton wrote:I turned to your friend Norman Geras for illumination, but in vain. All I got was
If you don't own this, then listen, forget it, you ain't no kind of a dude. Your life may be rich in a thousand other ways, but is also hopelessly impoverished. Rectify the matter. Soon.
Shame, one of my lifelong ambitions is to be a dude.
Don't worry, Robin, you're a dude.
Last edited by Tim Lund on 24 Jan 2014 19:13, edited 2 times in total.

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 18:35

First published in 1959, this original study argues that the main characteristic of music is that it expresses and evokes emotion, and that all composers whose music has a tonal basis have used the same, or closely similar, melodic phrases, harmonies, and rhythms to affect the listener in the same ways.
I'd like to expand on this a little if I may?

Western music is based on the C Major scale which can be viewed as the master scale of almost all music for hundreds of years, this scale can be broken down into another seven scales called modes which all have a specific mood or feeling and came from different European tribes from Greece Turkey etc. and were adopted by the church in the middle ages.

If we play the C major scale C,D,E,F,G,A,B we get what is know as the Ionian mode, which has a major tonality and presents us with an uplifting happy sound.

We can further break down the C Major scale by starting the sequence of notes on the second step of the scale D which gives us the sequence D,E,F,G,A,B,C and has a minor tonality exclusively used by the Greek Dorian tribe and known as the Dorian mode which gives quite a sad melancholy feeling.

Next would be the scale E Phrygian mode which has a Spanish flamenco sound.

F Lydian ethereal G Mixolydian Blues Jazz and Rock Dominant sound A Aeolian mode also known as the Natural minor scale. which is probably one of the most Rock sounding scales and seriously kicks ass.

B Locrian which isn't much cop IMO

This is basically where composers get their feelings from but there are other really important scales like Harmonic minor which can be broken down in to modes and gives us scales such as 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale made popular by neo classical musicians. Diminished scale Beethoven's 5th territory and anything heavy metal sounding uses the devils chord the tri tone.

Melodic minor which I don't like because I hate stuff that does not make musical sense and Jazz people like it but to me it sounds crudd.
Chords are basically notes of the scale stacked using three notes known as triads which basically use the root third and 5th of the scale which can be doubled up to give fuller voicing.

I could expand on it further AKA Lund style but you've probably all fell asleep by now anyways and I would have to start charging an hourly rate.

I hope you've enjoyed

CaptainCarCrashes Music 101.
Last edited by CaptainCarCrash on 24 Jan 2014 19:07, edited 3 times in total.

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 18:39

rod taylor wrote:Tim, are you some kind of dude?
Yes, hes the dogs nadgers with nuke powered brain.

Tim Lund
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Tim Lund » 24 Jan 2014 19:26

CaptainCarCrash wrote:
First published in 1959, this original study argues that the main characteristic of music is that it expresses and evokes emotion, and that all composers whose music has a tonal basis have used the same, or closely similar, melodic phrases, harmonies, and rhythms to affect the listener in the same ways.
I'd like to expand on this a little if I may?

...

CaptainCarCrashes Music 101.
As it happens, I got a grade 9 in Music O-level - the lowest possible grade. In those days, schools didn't worry so much about league tables. I'd probably do a bit better now, but in fact, one of the things I like about music, is that I'm completely reconciled to not being able to understand all the theory, and can allow myself to just enjoy it, without fully understanding why.

I had a girlfriend once who was a seriously good musician, who was baffled that I couldn't identify even as simple an interval as a minor seventh. I would go to concerts with her, and any Mozart slow movement,

[youtubes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-eLzao63I[/youtubes]

so serene, calm and relaxing, would mean I was asleep within a few minutes, and then her elbow would arrive, stopping my snoring. I felt her brain, thanks to her training and basic ability, must have been kept active and alert in a way mine was not.

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 19:41

I have never worked well within the closed minded institute of regurgitated facts known as school.

I learned music alone, I don't have perfect pitch or motor skills but what I do have is a passion for it and a desire to improve upon my abilities. I know I'm quite low end compared to real musicians but I've met some great people and have had a lot of fun doing it over the years especially when I was younger.

My focus now is to have fun and embrace the fact I've been the musician I'm always going to be for the past 20 years or so.

Not brilliant but quite good if I practice enough :D

Robin Orton
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Robin Orton » 24 Jan 2014 20:16

CaptainCarCrash wrote:
First published in 1959, this original study [Deryck Cooke, The Language of Music] argues that the main characteristic of music is that it expresses and evokes emotion, and that all composers whose music has a tonal basis have used the same, or closely similar, melodic phrases, harmonies, and rhythms to affect the listener in the same ways.
I'd like to expand on this a little if I may? [...] [T]he Ionian mode [...] has a major tonality and presents us with an uplifting happy sound. [...] [T]he Dorian mode [...] gives quite a sad melancholy feeling. [...] [T]he [...] Aeolian mode [...] seriously kicks ass.[...]This is basically where composers get their feelings from [...]
I recently struggled through a rather tough book by Charles Rosen called Music and Sentiment, which challenges all this (to my regret, as Deryck Cooke went to the same school as me, so I would like to believe he was right.) He points out that the same melodic sequence can express totally different emotions in different contexts. If I understand him correctly, he argues that the key to expressivity in music is much more complex and involves lots of different elements: not just melody or modality, but also tempo, rhythm, timbre (e.g. orchestration), form (the way melodic,harmonic or rhythmic elements are used to structure a piece of music), and, perhaps most of all, the contrasts between tension/discord and relief/resolution, which in Western music(including jazz, pop and rock) largely relies on harmonic changes (and often, I suppose, modulation from one key to another.)

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 20:54

Yes Robin you are correct but the fundamental emotive force is held within the scale itself.

Everything you have mentioned turns a scale form in to music but when you break music down in to its component parts such as scales, the most basic element of music, you can find that emotion is encoded in to it, agreed it's in it's most basic state but if a composer is looking for a specific feeling no doubt he/she would choose the device which best expresses that emotion which would almost certainly would be down to a scale choice. I doubt you'd find a piece that celebrates the joys of spring in Dm in a slow tempo and I doubt you'd find an expression of a broken heart in A Major at 128bpm, at least the way I would approach it would be to consider which scale best fits the emotion I'm looking for , but I'm not a classical composer although if I wanted to make everyone happy I'd play fast in a major key, if I want everyone sad I play slow in a minor key.

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 21:18

Deryck Cooke went to the same school as me, so I would like to believe he was right
How arrogant are you?

I don't really mind Robin, but this is exactly the reason why I behave the way I do on so many threads.

It's becoming too obvious now like a complete wind up or something :roll:

Are you for real or what?

CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by CaptainCarCrash » 24 Jan 2014 21:53

Tim Lund wrote:
I'd like to expand on this a little if I may?

...

CaptainCarCrashes Music 101.
10 out of 10

You have passed with flying colours, keep up the good work.

I missed it at first, well done :lol:

TBH Tim I could never do graded exams in music because I refuse to play things which I consider almost void of use. If I don't like something then I will not do it no matter what it is, I think that is my weakness, ass soon as I feel labored I totally disregard it. Do you find that strange? Because it would appear that as far as you are concerned there is nothing too dull.

Robin Orton
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Re: Sticky music thread

Post by Robin Orton » 24 Jan 2014 23:04

CaptainCarCrash wrote:
Deryck Cooke went to the same school as me, so I would like to believe he was right
How arrogant are you?I don't really mind Robin, but this is exactly the reason why I behave the way I do on so many threads.It's becoming too obvious now like a complete wind up or something :roll:
Blimey.
CaptainCarCrash wrote: Are you for real or what?
The former.

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