Sockpuppets on t'other forum

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JGD
Posts: 574
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Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by JGD » 31 Jul 2019 15:00

DickWynne wrote:
31 Jul 2019 14:45
I just happened to unexpectedly come by some potentially conclusive evidence of a single bad act. My speculations may have been unhelpful.
Certainly not unhelpful and not for a moment was there a sense of unilateral action being taken.

In all and every circumstance, these precautions may be required.

Potentially conclusive can but be hoped for.

Especially if it serves to get Chris to listen to the voices of good people telling him to STOP.

michael
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Joined: 26 Sep 2006 12:56
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by michael » 31 Jul 2019 15:08

JGD wrote:
31 Jul 2019 14:15
... he self-confessed he was fabricating the Flava Baker entities and lied about their relationship with them is actually horrifying. Fear was being foisted on Nic in an uncontrolled manner by this guy.
Not just Nic's fear but also her children (based on what she posted on Facebook) who heard from friends that their mother was going to be locked up. Whether intentional or unintentional, posting such a statement in the public domain, on a local forum, without giving the accused any opportunity to defend herself in any way (including speaking to the police), has resulted in further public harassment of this person and their family.

Some people will think that this might be deserved after somebody sent a nasty email - but it was a nasty email to an email account deliberately set up under a false name with a false background story for the purposes of entrapment and invading somebody else's private space. Nothing was in the public domain. I don't see this sort of action as harassment (especially since all the data came from a public Facebook account - quite different from the attempt to view data in a private account for which purpose the sock puppet account was set up) but I do see the public response as harassment of an individual and her family.

Incredibly it appears that only when found out/admitted as a sock puppet did this 'harassment' get reported to the police.

beigemartin
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by beigemartin » 31 Jul 2019 16:24

DickWynne wrote:
31 Jul 2019 05:29
...GDPR as the reason the forum could not change ownership, which is the only way I would reactivate my membership of it.
I can't believe this is true. Information is bought and sold all the time... At the limit consider Facebook and their shareholders who sometimes are part owners for only a few minutes. At the most I would have thought a change of ownership may require users to re-accept Terms & Conditions.

stuart
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by stuart » 31 Jul 2019 16:59

beigemartin wrote:
31 Jul 2019 16:24
DickWynne wrote:
31 Jul 2019 05:29
...GDPR as the reason the forum could not change ownership, which is the only way I would reactivate my membership of it.
I can't believe this is true. Information is bought and sold all the time... At the limit consider Facebook and their shareholders who sometimes are part owners for only a few minutes. At the most I would have thought a change of ownership may require users to re-accept Terms & Conditions.
Coincidentally I have an email in my in-tray covering giving me notice of just such a transfer involving an account I have with the company. It contains this phrase in relation to the receiving company:

"The [redacted] will process your personal data fairly and lawfully in accordance with their privacy policy the principles of the Data Protection Act 2018 and the EU General Data Protection Regulation for the purpose of continuing to provide goods, services and information to you."

That's it - no acceptance required by me - just a contact if I want to do anything about it. Did they do wrong?

Stuart

JGD
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by JGD » 31 Jul 2019 19:11

Interesting development - will he need a reference?

Image

RJM
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by RJM » 1 Aug 2019 14:05

To go back to sockpuppeting briefly - I've noticed a non-mod on the other forum making reference to editing titles of threads. Assuming that this isn't a standard ability, would I be right in thinking that's a CB sockpuppet?

Edit: I idly googled the user name and found a matching Twitter profile that confirms my theory! :roll: So he's doing well at "stepping back".

JGD
Posts: 574
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Location: Perry Hill, SE6 (yup that's Catford)

Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by JGD » 1 Aug 2019 14:11

It appears to be a quieter day today. Are appearances deceptive?

Let us use the time to briefly review the behaviours and strategies of the narcissist in extracts from an article by Darius Cikanavicius.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psycholo ... t-arguing/

Thank you to two private correspondents who have provided further pointers to me.

You can compare them with those behaviours we have seen used by the owner of SE23.life.

The highlights and emphases are mine.

"6 Toxic Arguing Techniques Used by Narcissists and Manipulators

As someone who has been fascinated by and studied philology (i.e., language), psychology, and argumentation for most of my adult life, I’ve seen thousands of good and bad examples in various scenarios and everything in between. Most people, however, are not knowledgeable in these disciplines and therefore may become easily confused, frustrated, intimidated, or shocked when they encounter certain toxic tactics commonly used by narcissists and other manipulators.

And so we will explore some typical techniques a narcissist uses in conflicts and similar social situations.

1. Arguing in bad faith
When in disagreement, a common person tries to understand the other party, listen to them, be honest, and make sure they understand where others are coming from. Sure, sometimes people can slip and become too upset or too anxious. But generally that’s the unwritten guideline.

Narcissists on the other hand argue in what is sometimes referred to as bad faith. It means that they don’t even care about, or try to understand, the other person. Or even worse, they are dedicated to deliberately misunderstanding and mischaracterizing others, often to the point of absurdity.

They are willingly dishonest, deceptive, and morally corrupt. Often while at the same time quick to accuse others of being dishonest, deceptive, and morally corrupt (more on that in #5).

2. Fallacies, nonsense, word salad
Narcissists are often ill-equipped to have mature discussions or resolve conflicts yet in their mind they are experts at it. As a result, they often use some terms, arguments, or techniques that they’ve heard about yet don’t really understand, all while thinking that they are being rational, reasonable, or correct. Sometimes to the degree that they become extremely upset or even aggressive that you are being irrational, unreasonable, uneducated, and unwilling or unable to have a mature conversation.

Meanwhile in reality, what they’re saying is simply an incoherent rant or an amalgamation of logical and argumentation fallacies, misrepresentation of you, factual errors, emotional language, or pure nonsense (as in something that literally makes no sense). In more extreme cases it is called word salad, as in a mix of words that are just thrown together with no coherence or structure.

3. Provoking, bullying, intimidating
Since a narcissist’s goal is to dominate and be perceived as right at all costs, they often use aggression. This category involves the more overtly aggressive tactics commonly used by narcissists.

Such methods include provoking, bullying, and intimidating, where the narcissist picks on you, calls you names, yells, acts overly emotional, deliberately tries to hurt you, blatantly lies, threatens, or even physically aggresses against you.

Not only that, then they spin it around by presenting it as if by reacting to it or by ignoring them you are the one who’s unreasonable, too emotional, and aggressive against them.


4. Lying, denying, changing definitions
Here, in order to “win,” the narcissist uses more covert tactics.

Sometimes they lie about what happened, what you or they did and didn’t do, or even about what’s real and factually true. Often to the degree of pure denial and delusion. An attempt to confuse the other person and make them doubt their experiences or reality by lying about it is called gaslighting.

Another method that falls in this category is redefining to suit their narrative. For that purpose, they are keen on using euphemistic language or redefining commonly used words to fit their narrative when it clearly doesn’t. Again, the goal is to justify that what they are doing is good and what they are saying is right, even when it clearly isn’t.

Sometimes it means reframing or minimizing their toxic behavior to confuse you. For instance, “I didn’t yell at you, I was just passionate.” Or, “This is not abusive or manipulative, I’m just being assertive and honest.”

5. Deflecting, attacking, projecting
A painfully common tactic used by narcissists is deflect and attack.

Here, the goal is to shift attention from what the narcissist is saying and doing to what you are saying and doing, where they never have to take responsibility for their toxic behavior or address anything you’re saying.

If you bring something up that you don’t like or find to be untrue and problematic, instead of addressing it or taking responsibility for it, they will quickly deflect and go into attack mode.
This means they will use their toxic tactics to quickly shift attention from themselves and bring up something that you may or may not have said or done. Often to the degree where they try to always keep you on the defense by accusing you of all sorts of stuff, some of which includes the things they are actually doing themselves (narcissistic projection).

And if you make a mistake of actually trying to address it, you will get distracted from the initial issue and soon become overwhelmed by all the stuff that now you are expected to address and clarify. And do so to a person who doesn’t care about understanding you and is dedicated to mischaracterizing you in order to dominate and “win an argument.”

6. Involving others and acting out revenge fantasies
Narcissists have extremely fragile egos and a shaky sense of self-esteem. If you actually stand up for yourself and don’t play their games, they perceive it as humiliation, as you being unfair, even abusive to them. In their eyes, you are being unreasonable because you don’t acknowledge that they are superior, right, and all around wonderful people. They find it terribly offensive, and feel shame, injustice, and rage (narcissistic injury).

To regulate their overwhelming emotions, they often try to receive false validation. This means looking for people who would side with them and tell them that you are wrong and evil and they are right and good. It involves lying, smearing, slandering, triangulating, gossiping, stalking, and other forms of social aggression and manipulation.


We explored this more in the previous article titled How Narcissists Play the Victim and Twist the Story.

Summary and final words
In a social interaction, discussion, or argument, regular, well-meaning people treat others with curiosity, empathy, and good faith. A narcissist, on the other hand, sees interaction as a win-lose situation. To “win,” they try to dominate, bully, deceive, demean, humiliate, and hurt others.

For that, they use certain common and predictable tactics that include but are not limited to arguing in bad faith, lying, denying, deflecting and attacking, gaslighting, and intimidating. If and when they feel they have lost or were wronged, they will try to intimidate you further and manipulate others in order to hurt you personally and socially. Sometimes while accusing you of it at the same time.

Engaging with a person who uses these tactics is fruitless, frustrating, boring, and predictable. Yet someone who is not quite familiar with it may think, “But if only I explained myself better…” Or, “But if only I presented my argument better…” Or, “But if only they could understand where I’m coming from…” But if only…."

This post has been GDPR proofed.

hotterthanurex
Posts: 28
Joined: 16 Jul 2019 20:59

Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by hotterthanurex » 1 Aug 2019 15:15

Oooh, is flavia baker picking up some of the slack? :wink:
RJM wrote:
1 Aug 2019 14:05
To go back to sockpuppeting briefly - I've noticed a non-mod on the other forum making reference to editing titles of threads. Assuming that this isn't a standard ability, would I be right in thinking that's a CB sockpuppet?

Edit: I idly googled the user name and found a matching Twitter profile that confirms my theory! :roll: So he's doing well at "stepping back".

Rachael
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by Rachael » 1 Aug 2019 15:42

RJM wrote:
1 Aug 2019 14:05
To go back to sockpuppeting briefly - I've noticed a non-mod on the other forum making reference to editing titles of threads. Assuming that this isn't a standard ability, would I be right in thinking that's a CB sockpuppet?

Edit: I idly googled the user name and found a matching Twitter profile that confirms my theory! :roll: So he's doing well at "stepping back".
Nice try, but members over there at a certain trust level can do those sorts of edits on other people's post without being a mod. Of course why they would want to is a different matter.

promofaux
Posts: 2
Joined: 1 Aug 2019 15:29

Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by promofaux » 1 Aug 2019 15:47

RJM wrote:
1 Aug 2019 14:05
To go back to sockpuppeting briefly - I've noticed a non-mod on the other forum making reference to editing titles of threads. Assuming that this isn't a standard ability, would I be right in thinking that's a CB sockpuppet?

Edit: I idly googled the user name and found a matching Twitter profile that confirms my theory! :roll: So he's doing well at "stepping back".
I'm not a mod there, and I also have the ability to edit titles of threads, it's to do with user "trust level" (I am aware of the irony of the word trust as regards that forum) See below screencap:

Image

Curious to know which one you think is dear leader, I've had a couple of suspicions myself, but not sure enough to bother questioning it.

FYI: I am not CB, BTW.

Robin Orton
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by Robin Orton » 1 Aug 2019 15:51

In my view, JGD's screed about narcissism adds nothing to this discussion. Indeed, I don't think one should speculate about named individuals' possible psychopathology on this sort of forum.
Last edited by Robin Orton on 1 Aug 2019 15:59, edited 2 times in total.

smiris
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by smiris » 1 Aug 2019 15:55

I know who you mean... and I've had my suspicions for a while too and looking at Twitter it seems to confirm it!

RJM
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by RJM » 1 Aug 2019 16:05

Ah, I didn't realise "trust" levels meant you could do that :oops: . I've never used a forum where anyone without admin privileges could edit thread titles. I'm not entirely convinced by the poster in question, but will downgrade my suspicions!

Rachael
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by Rachael » 1 Aug 2019 16:16

rod taylor wrote:
1 Aug 2019 16:04
Robin Orton wrote:
1 Aug 2019 15:51
In my view, JGD's screed about narcissism adds nothing to this discussion. Indeed, I don't think one should speculate about named individuals' possible psychopathology on this sort of forum.
I thought society was supposed to be having an honest conversation about mental health so that we can destigmatize it and help vulnerable people to overcome prejudice blah blah...and so on...
I think that's true in a general context. I agree with Robin that it's not appropriate (IMO) to speculate on an open forum about a readily identifiable individual.

JGD
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by JGD » 1 Aug 2019 17:40

Rachael wrote:
1 Aug 2019 16:16
I think that's true in a general context. I agree with Robin that it's not appropriate (IMO) to speculate on an open forum about a readily identifiable individual.
Yes me too.
But here is the thing.
The identifiable individual has been acting in an unchecked predatory fashion.
He schemed to entrap a member of our community with the purpose of reporting her to the police.
She was very close to falling foul of that plan. She endured harassment in the extreme. She endured fear. Her kids heard from their friends that their mum was going to prison.
Good people believed that the identifiable individual could not possibly engage in such activities. And some elected to join in the public attack on her believing what this identifiable individual told them.
And a tiny group grew into a small but effective group to offer her support.
Is there a rationale for my post?
Of course there is. Look at the content and make your own comparisons. As I said.
And if you see another of his victims - go help them too.
Pleased to be thick skinned enough not to worry too much about criticism.
Am I ready to do it again - you decide.

Rachael
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by Rachael » 3 Aug 2019 10:31

There's a lot of 'noise' on this thread - facts and theories jostling for attention. If you strip all that out, what are we left with? This:

CB says he reported Nicola to the police for harassment.
Nicola goes to the police several times to identify herself and be associated with that report. Each time no record is found.
CB states in several places that he has the Crime Reference Number for the report.
Nicola asks through various channels for the CRN.
CB refuses to give it to her.

This is the salient point: CB refuses to give her the CRN. Why?

Here's what Nicola can do with the CRN: she can present herself in person to the police, provide proof of her identity and give them the CRN. They will then tell her whether or not she is a named person associated with that CRN. If the police feel they want to question her at that point they will.

That's it. She can't derail the investigation. She can't use it against CB in any way.

So, again, we have to ask: why will CB not give her the CRN? The conflict of facts presented in this thread does strongly suggest it is because the police report is fake. But that's a serious charge.

Let's take a step back and say it is genuine. In that case, CB is STILL acting in bad faith by not giving Nicola the CRN (or authorising others who have it to pass it to her). The ONLY reason he can have in that scenario is simply to prolong the agony for Nicola. In doing so he also extends the length of time his name and the reputation of the .Life forums are under a very black shadow. CB MUST know that if he co-operated with Nicola on this, it would do a HUGE amount to restore people's faith in him, and would blow all these theories about the report being faked out of the water.

And yet, still, he won't do it.
Last edited by Rachael on 3 Aug 2019 18:05, edited 1 time in total.

JGD
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by JGD » 3 Aug 2019 11:38

Rachael wrote:
3 Aug 2019 10:31
That's it. She can't derail the investigation. She can't use it against CB in any way.

So, again, we have to ask: why will CB not give her the CRN? The conflict of facts presented in this thread does strongly suggest it is because the police report is fake. But that's a serious charge.
Succinct, Rachael.

Homecroft
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by Homecroft » 3 Aug 2019 12:50

All about being in control and nothing more. Clearly craves being in control of any and every situation, regardless of the cost to others.

That or he has something to hide, and is praying they decide to take no further action, if they haven't already. Because if Nicola or any of his other targets were to put their side across it might and probably would look pretty bad for him and his reputation.

Spineless to the end. Just a sad little control freak, which is why he remains puppetmaster of the forum, even while living miles away. Because it gives him control.

Grow up man, and just publish, instead of touting it round people you think will take your side and tell everyone else you are a goodie two shoes.

Your admission of being a nasty piece of work is already out there, you can't change that. So why make it worse.

Robin Orton
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by Robin Orton » 3 Aug 2019 14:42

I'm finding this constant and repetitive slagging off of Chris Beach pointless and distasteful; it smacks of an online lynch mob. I'm not in a position to defend him and indeed wouldn't particularly want to. But what's the point of going on and on about his alleged misdeeds?

What I don't suppose most of us will ever know (those of us, that is, who haven't got access to what I gather is a previous history on social media) is the background to his alleged feud with Nicola (whoever she is.) I for one wouldn't want come to any sort of final conclusion about the rights and wrongs without knowing something about that.

Meanwhile, I shall continue (with some reservations) to use SE23. life when it seems useful to do so. I note with interest the apparent change of approach by the moderator(s) of SE23.com (still Steve Shaw?) and would not rule out transferring my allegiance back if that proves to be more than a flash in the pan.

JGD
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Re: Sockpuppets on t'other forum

Post by JGD » 3 Aug 2019 15:08

Fair and succinct too, Robin.
Robin Orton wrote:
3 Aug 2019 14:42
I for one wouldn't want come to any sort of final conclusion about the rights and wrongs without knowing something about that.
As to what's the point, there is an emerging and growing number of reports from people who have been subject to attacks by Chris Beach in public posts and in private messages and occasional threats to report people to the police or invoke action by his lawyers. That range of activities often starts with unwarranted criticism through to unchecked red-mist style attacks and beyond.

There has been discussion about curating a compendium of anonymised, unvarnished accounts. That remains to be seen.

You too might be surprised by the number of the great and good in our communities who have been targeted.

It pleases me that you are not a victim.

If you encounter one - do have a chat with them - ask a few questions. I will be surprised if your view is not altered after that.

But hey-ho.

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