se23.com - an exile from the north speaks out

Wear your anorak proudly here! The place to discuss website & forum developments, administration, wish-lists, bugs, abuse etc

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CaptainCarCrash
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Post by CaptainCarCrash » 8 Dec 2009 08:43

Quite, However if you think that the control freak from SE23 is interested in an opinion that outlines and highlights his shortcomings then I think you are wasting your time, I would be very suprised if he ever would communicate with sombody who has shown disagreement with his heavy handed inept way of administering his site.

Have you told him the way you feel about the situation?

And if so did he respond?

se23 exile
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Post by se23 exile » 8 Dec 2009 09:25

mikecg, stop stirring.

I have no personal quarrel with the guy. My beef with se23.com is a little bit of pettiness I encountered there, and I've stopped posting. It sounds like others have similar experience. Clearly the site has its regulars and is generating posts, although it seems fewer than neighbouring area forums.

I have more questions on foresthillonline, but haven't time to post now.

CaptainCarCrash
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Post by CaptainCarCrash » 8 Dec 2009 09:59

Dont get me wrong but you saw fit to post your distane on two forums about SE23.com what are/were you looking to achieve by doing this?

I asked you a valid question and I dont see it as stirring, some of my comments were tongue in cheek and i'd rather hoped you saw that.

If you have a genuine issue with the proprietor of the site it may be wise to speak to them directly and if you dont get anywhere then you should seek opinion.

Having said this I think it's all very negative and draining and maybe you could take a leaf out of my book and see as a bit like going to the wrong pub.

have you tried

admin at se23.com ?

admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin » 8 Dec 2009 10:43

Mike,

Your view of the SE23.COM admin is about as accurate as Lambchop's is of me. Some of us had the opportunity to meet him during the Forum Quizzes. Despite the overwhelming intellectual power that is SE26 I think everybody found him to be a decent bloke. Egocentric would be far from our minds.

We have discussed moderation. That's what Mods with a glass in their hand do. That also explains our dodgy personalities (or lack of them). We actually don't differ that much. Deciding to keep a closed focussed discussion is what some people like and other people hate. Doing the opposite just gets you a different set of hatemail. You pitch your camp, hope people sign up and let them get on with it. Change is more difficult than you think. As we may discover ...

Two mods with a pint will definitely agree on one thing. Why do we keep getting the wrong sort of poster? :wink:

In the old Usenet days there was a netiquette rule. Never post for six(?) weeks. Read and understand the ethos of the newsgroup. Some are factual, some are polite, robust, obscene ... it was a faux pas to post in the wrong 'style'. One adapted one's style to fit the forum and not expect the opposite.

Its not rocket science. People who don't are more prone to upset other users than the Mod. Most Mods don't appreciate being called in to sort. But you have to make a judgement. And you are most likely going to upset one side. Why I can manage upsetting both sides with no trouble at all ...

Admin

CaptainCarCrash
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Post by CaptainCarCrash » 8 Dec 2009 11:57

Yes I agree, I do not know the guy, and in this environment people behave in all sorts of different ways that do not justify their charater.

You know yourself that it is never going to be easy and who has the right to dictate to an admin anyway.

Quote Two mods with a pint will definitely agree on one thing. Why do we keep getting the wrong sort of poster?

I think that if you have an open forum all different kinds of people will join and by it's very nature is open to abuses. Since the days of Usenet the internet has evolved and expanded in many weird and wonderful ways and the most prodominent change has been access for anyone with no relevance to which walk of life they are from, in the old days Usenet would have been limited to a more limited user base like Universities and Colleges etc.

There lies part of the problem, do you vet everybody that joins to ensure they are going to fit and are the right type of person. Or do you deal with it as you go along and hope you dont get the wrong kind of poster.

All I know is I could'nt do it.

Ulysses
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Post by Ulysses » 8 Dec 2009 12:25

Do you mean like a 'fit and proper persons' test as employed by the F.A. to ensure the English league is not flooded with wealthy persons of dubious origin then mikecg?

Poor example I know but the www has moved on since it's original academia and military application. To hint that open community based forums should have some form of minimum criteria really doesn't sit right with me. Should we exclude on the basis of income/education/possessions/address/points on driving license? Yes, I am being glib here.

Whilst no forum/message board should intentionally appeal to the lowest common denominator it should anchor itself in a common denominator. In this case those who live in SE26. We're fairly broad minded and even allow those who live in SE23 and beyond. After all, Forest Hill is really just Sydenham anyway, it advertised itself as "Sydenham New Town" when it was being built and laid-out.

I think, again, Admin runs this site about right. Personally I think all avatars/monikers should have the persons real name. This way people would think twice about flaming/trolling. But I can understand peoples wish for anonymity and must always respect that. At any rate anonymity does not seem to mean flame wars break out on here that often so perhaps this forum self-moderates/self-selects.

Interventions from Admin seem rare and if it were not for me being peevish and opinionated would no doubt be even less!

admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin » 8 Dec 2009 12:32

mikecg wrote:Ddo you vet everybody that joins to ensure they are going to fit and are the right type of person. Or do you deal with it as you go along and hope you dont get the wrong kind of poster.
Only well known spammers and notorious IP ranges are rejected on sign-up. Otherwise STF is open to anyone who wants to contribute.

Most moderation is actually done by posters - not mods. As in any social gathering hints are given as to what is acceptable and what is not. The sensitive poster will spot these and will adapt. All nice'n'cosy.

Except that the hints returned can sometimes be a trifle strong and there is a growing tendency, not helped by recent legislation, to take offence when none was intended. This can sometimes quickly collapse into an unfortunate row. Both participants can feel totally justified. Many passers by are appalled. Mods are expected to do 'something'. One becomes an unwilling Solomon.

However nice'n'cosy also has its dangers. Sometimes things need to be said. It is, perhaps, the mods responsibility to find somewhere for it to be said and possibly help in transforming it so a good point is heard and not dismissed by its target audience because of its style.

Admin

CaptainCarCrash
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Post by CaptainCarCrash » 8 Dec 2009 12:43

Ulysses wrote:
Poor example I know but the www has moved on since it's original academia and military application. To hint that open community based forums should have some form of minimum criteria really doesn't sit right with me. Should we exclude on the basis of income/education/possessions/address/points on driving license? Yes, I am being glib here.
!
And I thought you were just being gnu.

:D

digime2007
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Post by digime2007 » 8 Dec 2009 13:57

I've made my opinion on light-touch moderation clear on the other thread so won't labour the point again here. I'll say again though that moderation is more likely to drive people away than keep people. Sometimes you just have to let things be ugly.

I do like forums that have a complain button next to each post. If people find a post offensive they click the button to alert the moderators. That way the forum becomes much more user moderated.

Don't know if that is possible here.

CaptainCarCrash
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Post by CaptainCarCrash » 8 Dec 2009 14:22

I personaly think the moderation is fair here and impartiality is key for good honest moderation in general.

se23 exile
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Post by se23 exile » 9 Dec 2009 09:09

Admin, how much time would you say it takes to moderate a forum?

It must take a big commitment of effort ...

admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin » 9 Dec 2009 09:43

Most of the time is spent keeping spam out. Moderation of posts is insignificant. In the summer and when things are jolly there is none for weeks, maybe months. I don't need to read every post.

Then things can get tetchy. It is a forum, people interact and the tetchiness spreads and grows. People complain. Does one let it fester or try and find ways of reducing it? Both draw criticism.

We are in a tetch period. Currently I'm trying to read every post which is difficult with a day job. Even then interventions are minor. More effective, I find, is jollying people along to better interact. After all we are mostly passing information or arguing a point. Being offensive rarely changes minds, except against the poster.

The bottom line is that everybody should be free to make their point. Occasionally they may need a little help to make it. It is only when there is a legality concerned or it is grossly offensive that the post itself should be moderated.

However, gross is a subjective concept. There is also housekeeping. Sorting duplicate threads, moving to a more appropriate place etc. These actions sometimes get misinterpreted.

Admin

se23 exile
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Post by se23 exile » 10 Dec 2009 08:58

Michael, you posted earlier that foresthillonline failed because:
there was no demand for a second forum in Forest Hill and the administrators, having set it up purely to compete with SE23.com lacked the motivation to keep it free of spam and out of the 6 frequent posters I suspect that at least 2 were the same person, and I wasn't there out of choice.
What do you mean, you weren't there out of choice?

Did the forum really fail purely because "there was no demand for a second forum"?

I mean look at this site, look at EDF ... they are lively, high-traffic forums.

Meanwhile the only active topic in SE23.com’s ‘Beyond SE23’ section is “Jelly mould/fungus in pots?”, last posted to yesterday afternoon. In the ‘SE23 Topics’ section there are a few recent posts about trains.

If that accurately reflects the interests of SE23 folk, this is a seriously dull area!

I notice on the foresthill site it says it was built "in co-operation and in partnership with the Forest Hill Traders Association, SE23.COM & the Sydenham Town website". There’s also a 2004 post on this forum from admin that he was helping build the site.

I'm guessing this refers to the site rather than the forum, which I’m assuming came later.

There’s also an earlier post in this forum about notices appearing in vacant shop windows in Forest Hill that Forest Hill Traders Association members were barred from SE23.com. Sounds like there’s a back-story here!

Last question … why was it called foresthill.org.uk? … I mean right away before even clicking on the link you’re excluding almost half the peeps in the postcode who live in Honor Oak Park.
Last edited by se23 exile on 10 Dec 2009 09:03, edited 1 time in total.

se23 exile
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Post by se23 exile » 10 Dec 2009 09:01

admin wrote:We are in a tetch period.
LOL.

I think people get 'forum cojones' and rant things anonymously on forums they would never in a million years say in person!

Or maybe I just don't go the right sort of pub on a Saturday night ...

CaptainCarCrash
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Post by CaptainCarCrash » 10 Dec 2009 10:24

se23 exile wrote:
admin wrote:We are in a tetch period.
LOL.

I think people get 'forum cojones' and rant things anonymously on forums they would never in a million years say in person!
Interesting point there se23 exile... I actually use my real name to rant and not for good reason in most cases unless I have been drinking and then I have a caviat that says Ignore when intoxicated I cannot be responsible. I dont drink and post anymore though but I have done and the fallout is rather embarassing, you live and learn.

One thing people neglect to realise in reguards to why a forum lives or dies is the domain name choice and wether or not they have greased the palm of search engine providers such as google. But it will be nigh on impossible to gain a user base where their is an already established forum, you could endup creating a haven for heevens lol!.

admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin » 10 Dec 2009 10:28

Exile: You have confused two different websites. Michael was referring to ForestHillOnline which I can't actually find anymore. It was mostly a forum and founded by two SE23 exiles. The editorial ethos appeared to be anti-SE23.COM which coloured many of their postings.

I thought it failed because of lack of content, the anti attitude and what appeared to be, frankly, mostly fake posts. If you are going to beat something you think is bad - you have to be good, or at least, less bad.

The other site foresthill.org.uk is there by accident. As explained in the About Us - it was the website of the Forest Hill & Sydenham Rotary Club until it closed. What should we do with the domain name was the question. At that time SE23.COM had a strong forum but had little else. The idea was to complement it with news & stuff on Forest Hill but linking to the SE23.COM forum for comment.

As I am based in SE26 I was not in the best position to manage a Forest Hill website. I tried hard, very hard, to get Forest Hill people involved. I failed. So what you see is frozen picture of 3/4 years ago. I will shortly take it down and replace it with a memorial to the Club (who started and ran the great Crystal Palace Firework Displays up to 1996 raising huge amounts of dosh for charity).

I have also tried to get SE20 people to get a real vibrant Penge site going. Again no luck. May be it is my interpersonal skills or these areas don't have the verve and diversity (read arguementitive) nature of Sydenhamites ... to do it online.

Admin
Last edited by admin on 10 Dec 2009 10:46, edited 1 time in total.

digime2007
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Post by digime2007 » 10 Dec 2009 10:40

se23 exile wrote:
admin wrote:We are in a tetch period.
LOL.

I think people get 'forum cojones' and rant things anonymously on forums they would never in a million years say in person!

Or maybe I just don't go the right sort of pub on a Saturday night ...
I blame reality TV (at least a bit). Encourages people to become armchair judges and validates opinion as entertainment. This is justified to the point of bullying and ridicule (e.g. Britain's Got Talent is just as much Victorian freak show/gladiatorial gaming as a talent contest).

digime2007
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Post by digime2007 » 10 Dec 2009 10:57

se23 exile wrote:There’s also an earlier post in this forum about notices appearing in vacant shop windows in Forest Hill that Forest Hill Traders Association members were barred from SE23.com. Sounds like there’s a back-story here!
I remember seeing posters up at the time, presumably from the Traders Association, stating they no longer had anything to do with the se23.com site. My memory is vague but I think were saying that the site was commandeered from them. Definitely a falling out.

admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin » 10 Dec 2009 11:42

digime2007 wrote:Definitely a falling out.
Better to say there were a number of misunderstandings. I got involved and in turn got misunderstood. Or did I misunderstand? Water under the bridge now.

To find out anymore you will need to get enough booze passed my better judgement at the next:

<blatant plug>
STF Christmas Social @ Golden Lion
7.30pm Friday 18th December
(to be followed by the free Blues Night @ 9pm)
Ladies & newcomers especially welcome
</blatant plug>

Admin

se23 exile
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Post by se23 exile » 10 Dec 2009 20:38

Thanks for explanation Admin.
admin wrote: As I am based in SE26 I was not in the best position to manage a Forest Hill website. I tried hard, very hard, to get Forest Hill people involved. I failed. So what you see is frozen picture of 3/4 years ago. I will shortly take it down and replace it with a memorial to the Club (who started and ran the great Crystal Palace Firework Displays up to 1996 raising huge amounts of dosh for charity).
Seems shame to waste all that work. I'd be willing to help out if that would do any good.

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