Just as a query. I've noticed the 'barrier' around the area where the accident occurred on Lawrie Park Road. I know that this is currently a memorial spot for the young man that died, and I sincerely have respect for this. But, does anyone know if the cone barriers that were put up is being monitored? The first time it was put up, the barriers were placed too far out on the road that even with the blue arrow sign pointing where to go, there was not enough room to get around it because of the pedestrian crossing island in the middle. Also, there are now cars parked on the Ambulance spot for the Hospice, which makes it even more difficult to see the cone barriers. I mean no disrespect to the families and friends that may have asked for these barriers to go up. And I know that those who live in the area and that knew about the accident are making an effort to drive slower on Lawrie Park Road. Unfortunately, not everyone's making this effort and I fear that with the barriers not placed accordingly and parked cars blocking the view of these barriers, it might just cause another accident.
Thanks in advance to those who respond to this.
Update on accident on Lawrie Park Road
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Cllr John Getgood
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 8 Jan 2009 11:30
- Location: Sydenham
I will report it to Bromley Council and the police. Bromley issued a statement on the accident last week. I did not post it as the thread had been closed out of respect for the victim and family. However, for clarification this is what Bromley said:
"As you may be aware a fatal collision occurred on Tuesday 16th June 2009 at about 4pm.
Two motorcycles were travelling north along Lawrie Park, thought to be racing each other. The rider of one vehicle lost control and hit a parked car and was then thrown into the southbound carriageway where he was struck by a car. He was pronounced dead at the scene. The rider of the second motorcycle failed to stop at the scene of the accident."
Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator
"As you may be aware a fatal collision occurred on Tuesday 16th June 2009 at about 4pm.
Two motorcycles were travelling north along Lawrie Park, thought to be racing each other. The rider of one vehicle lost control and hit a parked car and was then thrown into the southbound carriageway where he was struck by a car. He was pronounced dead at the scene. The rider of the second motorcycle failed to stop at the scene of the accident."
Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator
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theoneills2009
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 16 Jun 2009 20:28
Update on accident on Lawrie Park Road
Thank you, Mr. Getgood for your reply and for also posting the statement. The barriers have now been removed. Apologies about the incorrect information I provided about the pedestrian crossing island as the one I referred to is NOT directly in front of where the barriers were.
Thank you for posting Bromley's statement.Cllr John Getgood wrote:Bromley issued a statement on the accident last week. I did not post it as the thread had been closed out of respect for the victim and family.
Fatal RTAs are always a delicate matter. We have had three recently and a common theme is that within hours rumours as to what happened begin to fly. Some turn out to be correct as in this case. Others are widely wrong and could cause unnecessary distress. Telling the difference at the time is not possible ahead of an official statement. The possible downside of incorrect speculation appears to me to be greater than our natural wish to know what happened - immediately. So I am inclined to close those threads when dangerous ground is being approached.
I hope no one regards that as being censorious since once the facts have been established - then they should be posted here. If you have any facts related to any closed thread please PM me so I can re-open or start a new thread.
Admin
I think your approach is broadly right - if such an event were to happen again then I suppose another option would be to to make clear that inappropriate posts will be taken down, rather than lock the thread before someone actually posts something they shouldn't.
I think that excessive speeding is a problem on other roads too, but that's for another thread.
I think that excessive speeding is a problem on other roads too, but that's for another thread.
I do take issue with the term RTA....who is to say it is an accident until an investigation is complete and a coroner has delivered a verdict? If, for example, this person was hit by a drink driver then it wouldn't be an accident would it? He would be a victim of a crime....admin wrote: Fatal RTAs are always a delicate matter.
I am still trying to find out where (or if) collision investigations are published.
An accident is simply an unexpected event. A drunk driver could get himself home without having an accident, but he would have still committed a crime.bensonby wrote: If, for example, this person was hit by a drink driver then it wouldn't be an accident would it? He would be a victim of a crime.....
To continue on from the original thread here as the other one has been locked I am a Driving Instructor in the area and totally agree that cameras are very often not the answer.
Even in a car, I think that the cameras can cause more danger than they prevent, especially on faster roads where it is easy to go over the speed limit by just a few miles. They leave otherwise safe drivers scanning the road for cameras and checking their speed far more often than should be necessary when what the driver should be doing is paying attention to the road ahead.
The other comment from a motorcyclist about the amount of parked cars is a very valid one. I fail to understand why there are so many places where it is legal to park on LPR, especially when buses use the road. I teach my pupils to always stop at the give way at Border Road because nine times out of ten there are four or five cars parked between it and Lawrie Park Crescent and it would be extremely dangerous to approach with the intention of having a quick check up the road to see if it is clear to turn left onto LPR. Although these cars are technically illegally parked as the Highway Code explains that you must not park within 10 metres of a corner, nothing is ever done about it. I feel that either that bit of kerb should have double yellows or even red line parking restrictions or the give way at the end of Border Road should be a stop line instead.
My mother and I witnessed the aftermath of another serious accident today on the A2 on the way to Bluewater. It is shocking how many fatal accidents you come across on the roads, especially if you drive around a certain area for most of the day most days of the week.
A very tragic event indeed and one, having read the statement from Bromley, that leaves me even more determined to find even more ways to try to convince young road users that more care needs to be taken for a reason. It is just so hard to put an experienced head on young shoulders though. Very sad.
Even in a car, I think that the cameras can cause more danger than they prevent, especially on faster roads where it is easy to go over the speed limit by just a few miles. They leave otherwise safe drivers scanning the road for cameras and checking their speed far more often than should be necessary when what the driver should be doing is paying attention to the road ahead.
The other comment from a motorcyclist about the amount of parked cars is a very valid one. I fail to understand why there are so many places where it is legal to park on LPR, especially when buses use the road. I teach my pupils to always stop at the give way at Border Road because nine times out of ten there are four or five cars parked between it and Lawrie Park Crescent and it would be extremely dangerous to approach with the intention of having a quick check up the road to see if it is clear to turn left onto LPR. Although these cars are technically illegally parked as the Highway Code explains that you must not park within 10 metres of a corner, nothing is ever done about it. I feel that either that bit of kerb should have double yellows or even red line parking restrictions or the give way at the end of Border Road should be a stop line instead.
My mother and I witnessed the aftermath of another serious accident today on the A2 on the way to Bluewater. It is shocking how many fatal accidents you come across on the roads, especially if you drive around a certain area for most of the day most days of the week.
A very tragic event indeed and one, having read the statement from Bromley, that leaves me even more determined to find even more ways to try to convince young road users that more care needs to be taken for a reason. It is just so hard to put an experienced head on young shoulders though. Very sad.
The number of road deaths in this country, even though it is fewer than many other european countries, is shocking. And what's more it doesn't make the news....if 10 people were killed in a train crash then there would be outrage and enquiries....no such reaction is provoked by fatal RTCs.
The answers to stop people speeding aren't simple and there is no "quick fix" - better education, narrower roads, speed humps, cameras (single and average), police enforcement and the manufacture of cars themselves all have a part to play.
But I still don't know why they don't fix disablers fixed to GPS systems into cars to prevent them exceeding the speed limits of the roads that they are on...
The answers to stop people speeding aren't simple and there is no "quick fix" - better education, narrower roads, speed humps, cameras (single and average), police enforcement and the manufacture of cars themselves all have a part to play.
But I still don't know why they don't fix disablers fixed to GPS systems into cars to prevent them exceeding the speed limits of the roads that they are on...
Lois you know the area well by all the driving you do, imagine my horrer when my sister left my house in LPG and approached the roundabout in LPA and there was a youth driving round the rounadbout the wrong way, he had to mount the roundabout itself to avoid hitting my sisters car head on. Frightening!
Some young people just can't seem to see the danger in what they do.
Another place where there is a problem is coming out at the bottom of jews walk and turning left into sydenham road? (not sure if that part is syd road) with the zebra crossing as soon as you turn, cars behind are busy looking right and continue to move forward, not allowing for the fact that people may be crossing at that point and the car in front has to stop, this happened to me a couple of weeks ago and i had my lights broken at the rear.
But imagine what could have happened if my car had bee hit harder and shunted forward.
Some young people just can't seem to see the danger in what they do.
Another place where there is a problem is coming out at the bottom of jews walk and turning left into sydenham road? (not sure if that part is syd road) with the zebra crossing as soon as you turn, cars behind are busy looking right and continue to move forward, not allowing for the fact that people may be crossing at that point and the car in front has to stop, this happened to me a couple of weeks ago and i had my lights broken at the rear.
But imagine what could have happened if my car had bee hit harder and shunted forward.
Hi Annie,
Sorry for the delay. I don't get onto this or many other forums I use as often as I'd like. A plotholder on my allotment site mentioned my post today and I came on to remind myself of all that I'd said and found your post from way back in June.
You are talking about the junction of Jews Walk and Westwood Hill and I am assuming the zebra you mention is the one just before the roundabout at the bottom of Westwood Hill.
If I was asked which lesson of all was the most valuable during my training as an ADI (Approved Driving Instructor) back in '94 I would immediately say it was to 'look where you are going'. This sounds so obvious but so few drivers do it at junctions.
I came home so excited and said to Reg (my partner), "If you look where you are going when you drive it is so easy to stay safe!" He said "Of course we look where we're going" I told him that we don't and asked him to go for a little drive with me in the passenger seat to prove it. He did and was an immediate convert. I wasn't taught this when I learned to drive and neither was Reg and as common sense as it is I believe it is unlikely to be something many drivers will recognise for themselves. The sad thing is that it is still not taught by the majority of driving instructors and is not something emphasised by the Driving Standards Agency to be stressed to new drivers.
As an example let me tell you of a time my driving school car was rear ended during a driving lesson with me in the passenger seat at the junction of Crystal Palace Park Road and Westwood Hill.
CPPR meets WH at a very accute angle and years ago there were no lights controling this junction but just a give way line. My pupil had stopped at the give way line at the end of CPPR waiting to turn left and several cars had stopped behind us. I leaned forward just about as far as I could to see the traffic approaching up WH and although a car was coming towards us it was way back down the road and not travelling fast up the hill. I said "Lyn" and before I could continue with "do you not think that a big enough gap" we were hit and shunted out onto WH by the woman behind who had looked to the right, seen the huge gap and put her foot down to move without looking to see that we had started to drive forwards also. I had a whiplash injury that lasted almost a year.
In your case the drivers are looking to see what is approaching on the roundabout before even taking the zebra crossing into consideration. There are almost always crossings right before and after a roundabout and this is because pedestrians will attempt to cross the road at this point and wouldn't walk several tens of metres up each road to use a crossing to get around the roundabout. In my visual aids that I designed and created myself I have a roundabout diagram on a green background with the roundabout shape in black and white stripes like a zebra to emphasise that it is imperative to check those crossings both on approach to and before speeding up after a roundabout.
I believe that if all new drivers where made aware of just how important it is to know what is in front their vehicle before they make any attempt to move it that accidents would probably be reduced by about 60%!
Leaning this way also gives the new driver confidence as they recognise that they are in control and possess the knowledge and skills to drive defensively and avoid other drivers accidents from happening around them. I currently have several pupils with a full licence who gave up driving soon after passing their tests and now want refresher lessons before they take to the road again. This in my view is because they were taught to pass the test and not to drive and never gained the level of confidence they needed to be able to feel comfortable driving alone.
The only thing we can do in these situations is to recognise the likelihood and look even further ahead ourselves and slow down a lot earlier and a lot more gradually. This may sometimes make you an unpopular driver but it does help to avoid some of the situations. Whilst I am tired of having to effectively drive for others I still prefer that to the alternatives.
Far more road safety education is desparately needed.
Sorry for the delay. I don't get onto this or many other forums I use as often as I'd like. A plotholder on my allotment site mentioned my post today and I came on to remind myself of all that I'd said and found your post from way back in June.
You are talking about the junction of Jews Walk and Westwood Hill and I am assuming the zebra you mention is the one just before the roundabout at the bottom of Westwood Hill.
If I was asked which lesson of all was the most valuable during my training as an ADI (Approved Driving Instructor) back in '94 I would immediately say it was to 'look where you are going'. This sounds so obvious but so few drivers do it at junctions.
I came home so excited and said to Reg (my partner), "If you look where you are going when you drive it is so easy to stay safe!" He said "Of course we look where we're going" I told him that we don't and asked him to go for a little drive with me in the passenger seat to prove it. He did and was an immediate convert. I wasn't taught this when I learned to drive and neither was Reg and as common sense as it is I believe it is unlikely to be something many drivers will recognise for themselves. The sad thing is that it is still not taught by the majority of driving instructors and is not something emphasised by the Driving Standards Agency to be stressed to new drivers.
As an example let me tell you of a time my driving school car was rear ended during a driving lesson with me in the passenger seat at the junction of Crystal Palace Park Road and Westwood Hill.
CPPR meets WH at a very accute angle and years ago there were no lights controling this junction but just a give way line. My pupil had stopped at the give way line at the end of CPPR waiting to turn left and several cars had stopped behind us. I leaned forward just about as far as I could to see the traffic approaching up WH and although a car was coming towards us it was way back down the road and not travelling fast up the hill. I said "Lyn" and before I could continue with "do you not think that a big enough gap" we were hit and shunted out onto WH by the woman behind who had looked to the right, seen the huge gap and put her foot down to move without looking to see that we had started to drive forwards also. I had a whiplash injury that lasted almost a year.
In your case the drivers are looking to see what is approaching on the roundabout before even taking the zebra crossing into consideration. There are almost always crossings right before and after a roundabout and this is because pedestrians will attempt to cross the road at this point and wouldn't walk several tens of metres up each road to use a crossing to get around the roundabout. In my visual aids that I designed and created myself I have a roundabout diagram on a green background with the roundabout shape in black and white stripes like a zebra to emphasise that it is imperative to check those crossings both on approach to and before speeding up after a roundabout.
I believe that if all new drivers where made aware of just how important it is to know what is in front their vehicle before they make any attempt to move it that accidents would probably be reduced by about 60%!
Leaning this way also gives the new driver confidence as they recognise that they are in control and possess the knowledge and skills to drive defensively and avoid other drivers accidents from happening around them. I currently have several pupils with a full licence who gave up driving soon after passing their tests and now want refresher lessons before they take to the road again. This in my view is because they were taught to pass the test and not to drive and never gained the level of confidence they needed to be able to feel comfortable driving alone.
The only thing we can do in these situations is to recognise the likelihood and look even further ahead ourselves and slow down a lot earlier and a lot more gradually. This may sometimes make you an unpopular driver but it does help to avoid some of the situations. Whilst I am tired of having to effectively drive for others I still prefer that to the alternatives.
Far more road safety education is desparately needed.