Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

[JeeBee]

However the predicted car use of CPFC is actually 70% according to premier and football league travel surveys http://bit.ly/fWyQU5 (page 27)

That page says it's 53%, and that's an average across the entire league, rather than an average of city-bound football clubs, or CPFC directly.

Maybe this is a question that can be directed to the CPFC planners - how many people currently arrive by car (as the driver, to count the number of cars) to their matches. They can ask at the turnstile to get a large sample!

[Duke of Clarence]

Car use was recorded at 53%, the figure of 70% included those who travelled in a car. Some more statistics from the Football League Supporters Survey 2008 and 2010. The Football League includes CPFC, and CPFC supporters were included respondents in these surveys.

2008:
http://bit.ly/fWyQU5 (page 27)
How do you mainly travel to home matches?
Own car, 53%
Lift in car, 17%
Coaches, 2%

2010:
http://bit.ly/9cFBx3 (page 41)
How do you mainly travel to away matches:
Own car, 47%
Lift in car, 15%
Coaches, 15%

Obviously coaches are much more important for away supporters than they are for home supporters. Calculating numbers of coaches would depend on ticket allocation for away supporters, etc.

Still, 62% of away supporters arrive by car to the ground.

Yes it will be interesting to hear how the CPFC consortium plan to address the traffic and parking issues. It's not just the crowds for CPFC matches that need to be facillitated. Major music events will draw capacity numbers.

In the past major events in the stadium and NSC have had the use of the large car and coach parks as well as the Italian Terraces. That eased the strain on the approach roads and parking but CP was still rammed. This proposal to build a stadium twice the capacity of the current one and to remove on site parking without any clear transport policy in mind is wildly optimistic. And a little bit presumptious that those affected would embrace the proposal.

CPZs and road closures are in place around most stadiums. Selhurst has them in place and it is highly likley they will be seen as a way to address local parking demand when large scale events, 40,000 and CPFC matches, 11,000 to 25,000, take place.

CPZs do not resolve the parking problem they just dilute it. Those within the zone have the inconvenience of having to apply for parking permits. The 5 local authorities have to patrol it. Those just outside the zone will have the inconvenience of becoming an on street parking hub for stadium traffic.

[The Commander]

Public and park being the operative words. Not private commercial 40,000 seater football club. There is no correlation

It's not like the NSC area is that public at the moment - sure you can go for a swim, cup of coffee or a game of squash or climbing in the main building, but the stadium and the pitches are pretty much off limits right now.

They're not taking over currently public areas of the park, Indeed, they're turning tarmac to parkland with their plan (in conjunction with the masterplan), and also providing a proper public running track where the fenced off covered pitches are.

Have you actually been to the park?

Yes.

Have you looked at the masterplan? - I sincerely doubt it, if you think a 40,000 seater isn't going to impact on public areas of the park or the vision of the masterplan.

Say no to Public pain for private gain!

[The Commander]

However the predicted car use of CPFC is actually 70% according to premier and football league travel surveys http://bit.ly/fWyQU5 (page 27)

That page says it's 53%, and that's an average across the entire league, rather than an average of city-bound football clubs, or CPFC directly.

Maybe this is a question that can be directed to the CPFC planners - how many people currently arrive by car (as the driver, to count the number of cars) to their matches. They can ask at the turnstile to get a large sample!

They can ask as many questions as they like - but it isn't going to happen.

[The Commander]

Let's hope they got a sample before the plans became public because any sample now could not be used to support an application as the results would be skewed.

[Eagle]

I always got the train to Norwood Junction and the station was jam packed after the match so quite a few much have gone by train. Also Selhurst and Thornton Heath stations quite close.
Also I am sure those who live within 2 miles would walk.

[Syd_Stone]

IMAGE:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4 ... _pa300.jpg

This is Bolton Wanderers' Reebok Stadium. It has a capacity of 28,700. The picture shows one of the ends of the ground. As you can see, it has two tiers. Both tiers appear to be similar in height (if you include those executive boxes as part of the lower tier). That top tier has around 30 rows of seats.
For comparison, that's the same number of rows as in the Jubilee Stand at Crystal Palace Athletics stadium (I counted them last night).

Although factors such as roof choice, floodlight choice and the number of seats in the corners have to be taken into account, I think it's reasonable to assume that a 40,000 stadium would be about twice the height of the current athletics stadium.

[Duke of Clarence]

That's correct Syd, it's twice the capacity of the athletics stadium and probably twice the height of the NSC. Note how all press pics have been long shot ariel views.

Anyhow here's a long shot of my own to give an idea of which areas a 1M CPZ will effect:



For neutral information re current traffic and parking at Selhurst this link http://www.awaygroun...-selhurst-park/

The first review is from a fan who lives near the ground and he says "the whole area from 2 miles around becomes deadlocked approaching kick off and there is little parking."

[Eagle]

I am sure the Noble and Learned Duke has a Private Garage and chauffer for the Rolls.
What is wrong with a CPZ for the area shown. Might discourage rogue parkers and people just using the stations.
Surely we all agree there are too many cars in London
Is there a connection with the need to drive everywhere and the obesity epidemic.

[The Commander]

I am sure the Noble and Learned Duke has a Private Garage and chauffer for the Rolls.

Is there a connection with the need to drive everywhere and the obesity epidemic.

I think it might have something to do with overeating

[Duke of Clarence]

I am sure the Noble and Learned Duke has a Private Garage and chauffer for the Rolls.

My dear eagle, I have a stable of fillies so am not in need of further horse power.

What is wrong with a CPZ for the area shown. Might discourage rogue parkers and people just using the stations

Well it is important to remind ourselves of why a CPZ would be needed and that is not to address current parking/traffic situation but to make it possible for a private consortium to build a massive trip attracting complex on public land without any investment in the surrounding infra structure.

Lets face it the price of footballers is more than the price CPFC2010 have quoted for the proposed build (£50M, must be the IKEA range because that figure sounds like a gross under estimate). The consortium are going to need to "work" this stadium so they can invest in the team and it looks to me as though they intend to do it on the cheap. It is you and I who will pick up the bill whether that be through forking out for parking permits or increased council charges for police, wardens, street cleaning and extra public transport on event days. That's a big ask and the Grade II listed park becomes dominated by huge red and blue stadium and all that goes on in it, innit!

The details are still emerging but the plan is that stadium will be used most weekends by rugby and football clubs and throughout the summer large scale music concerts. A sell out music event in a 40,000 stadium could mean crowds of 60,000+ the pitch is used for standing room. On the bright side at least those of us who live within the 1M zone will get to hear it for free, it also means we get to hear the weekly matches.

CPZs will cost every household within the zone £x per year.
CPZs will deter visitors and shoppers from area most weekends.
CPZs create large areas of congestion and parking problems on their boundaries ( see diagram)
CPZs do not prevent car use they just make it less convenient. Using any of the local stations when tens of thousands of stadium bound people are alighting will not be pleasant and will make car use more desirable.

I would be against any proposal that would bring a massive increase in vehicles on the surrounding roads. I've seen buses that have broken down on Church Road blocking one lane, cause traffic to back up along the Parade resulting in tail backs down Sydenham Hill. What will happen when 2,000 to 8,000 extra cars descend at same time looking for on street parking?

[The Commander]

I am sure the Noble and Learned Duke has a Private Garage and chauffer for the Rolls.

My dear eagle, I have a stable of fillies so am not in need of further horse power.

What is wrong with a CPZ for the area shown. Might discourage rogue parkers and people just using the stations

I would be against any proposal that would bring a massive increase in vehicles on the surrounding roads. I've seen buses that have broken down on Church Road blocking one lane, cause traffic to back up along the Parade resulting in tail backs down Sydenham Hill. What will happen when 2,000 to 8,000 extra cars descend at same time looking for on street parking?

Or ascend even.

[The Commander]

The park coped with 100,000 football fans back when the FA was held there.
It coped when Coldplay played there (and other bands).
It coped when they had concerts there in the 70's garden parties. The likes of Elvis Costello, Pink Floyds etc played there.http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/Garden-party-71.html
It coped when they had athletics meetings.
It copes on Bonfire night for the fireworks.
It copes when they have various events such as cycling.
And it coped when it was the Crystal Palace.

Football seems to be a lot more subdued than it was years ago. Growing up Nottingham I remember feeling frightened when there were games, but I was only 4!

If it helps improve the park, then go for it.

Or we could have dozens of expensive consultations, consultations about the consultations, delay it for decades and nothing will happen. Like usual.

I am frankly shocked at this post Lee!

[madeinse19]

i cant beleive the ignorance of those who would challenge the point by means of arguing about traffic congestion and unwanted concerts or corparate events, hello everyone, i was born in se19 went to school in the area at all saints and then onto sylvan high, my place of birth which i am proud of is totally gone bonkers, there was always one that moaned by seriously, this is a facelift to the park as a whole improving facilities for young and old, it will be a masterplan for everyone in the community, the stadium re-location is firstly for crystal palace supporters (our local football team ) since 1905, what its ok if its down the road but not in our road, its ok to have a stadium in the park but as long as its only used twice a year and run down the rest of it, its ok to have a monument to athletics as long as its not used for local community as its substanded, come on people, if you support football or not , this is a massive plus for the community both jobs and business's. do you think football fans dont shop and do you not think football fans that support cpfc might not live among you, of course they do, maybe just maybe more live around the park than live around selhurst, secondly the athletics, they will put in place a NEW athletics track and facilities for the local community and aquatic centre, revamp the park and all of its grounds, extending lakes ect and incorparate car parking facilties, also those that talk about sainsburys car park at selhurst like its a NCP multi story , are really clutching at straws, it holds no more than 200 cars, no bigger than one of the two current car parks at the park, with tram and bus routes and LOCAL supporters travelling by other means of transport , i think your theory with disolve very fast, and of course last but not least our future children, please check out the education and training of young children and crystal palaces football in the community and schools, have a look at the effort thats put in there, maybe your right about some of your points on ownership ect, maybe there should be no sell on gain for cpfc2010, maybe the point that should be looked into is this solely for the benefit of the club and community or long term gain for cpfc2010, if they are really fans as they say, they will want to leave a legacy for all of us, make them put that in their masterplan, and maybe then we will create bridges for our beloved area

[madeinse19]

The park coped with 100,000 football fans back when the FA was held there.
It coped when Coldplay played there (and other bands).
It coped when they had concerts there in the 70's garden parties. The likes of Elvis Costello, Pink Floyds etc played there.http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/Garden-party-71.html
It coped when they had athletics meetings.
It copes on Bonfire night for the fireworks.
It copes when they have various events such as cycling.
And it coped when it was the Crystal Palace.

Football seems to be a lot more subdued than it was years ago. Growing up Nottingham I remember feeling frightened when there were games, but I was only 4!

If it helps improve the park, then go for it.

Or we could have dozens of expensive consultations, consultations about the consultations, delay it for decades and nothing will happen. Like usual.

I am frankly shocked at this post Lee!

e
what are you shocked about, that not everybody see your short sightedness as reasonable
the above points are valid, and are not what we should be addressing, lets make sure that the most important points are met, the DEVELOPMENT of the park and surrounding areas as a part of this plan

[Hill Dweller]

Parks don't need DEVELOPMENT, parks are for leisure and air and enjoyment of anything other than exploitative business people's self-interest.

I suggest you find out what purposes the park was actually built FOR, how the amateur footie team even came in to being and realise that their borrowing of the park's name has nothing to do with what footie has become these days.

One can see you're emotional about this ...... aw diddums

[ALIB]

Increasingly, Parks need to have some kind of income/self-funding. That is the current state of affairs throughout the public sector.
Crystal Palace park may not need development, but it does require a great deal of maintenance. This is a big drain on Bromley's finite resources, and is obviously a complex issue.

CPFC are proposing a solution, of a kind. Let's see how this pans out when the full plans are released.

[Hill Dweller]

Not sure how Bromley came to be wholly responsible for CPP, that seems to be the big problem in all this ...... as well as the likelihood that Croydon could pay CPFCLtd's new owners (too?) handsomely for the site for housing.
.

[ALIB]

It is a complex situation Hill Dweller. I don't have all the information regarding Bromley/CPFC etc, but I have a bit.

If Selhurst were to be sold (for housing/Sainsburys etc), this would form the financial basis for relocation to CP Park.
Unofrtunately for CPFC's new owners, they purchased Selhurst with the inclusion of an 'anti-embarrassment' clause from Administrators. This means any profits from the sale of Selhurst will be divvied-up between CPFC and (I think) Lloyds bank.

However, IF this were to occur, then CPFC would also have to offer sweeteners to park-users/the local residents/Bromley. This would probably transpire when the full plans are released / during the Planning process.

[Hill Dweller]

and consultation process.

I shall go make a spear and put blades on my chariot wheels