Sydenham Common
Sydenham Common
One edge of the common apparently went down Elliot Bank, but is it possible that Sydenham Common could have included what is now Horniman's Gardens and the park across the road?
Steve G conducted a walk around here recently.
The common as mapped in 1799 was bounded on the west by the county border that ran down Elliot bank.
The hallowed field/play area south of Horniman's is in Surrey as is the vast majority of Horniman's gardens and so not part of the common as of 1799. Steve has suggested that earlier this play field was part of a pound to keep any stray animals found on the common. (Hensford Pond 1746 Rocque).
The common/county boundary ran to the east of the museum up to the back/north entrance of the gardens where roughly just before the rear gate it met the northern boundary that ran up to Hill House on Honor Oak Rd.
The really exciting thing is that the "Kent field" - a later addition to Horniman gardens on the East side of the boundary behind the nursery, was very much part of the common, and, give or take a few yards to the gate, maps almost perfectly to this upper left hand corner of the common(1799).
This Kent field/hill is my favourite part of the gardens and must be the largest remaining public area of what was Sydenham common.
(Apologies to Steve for anything I misunderstood)
The common as mapped in 1799 was bounded on the west by the county border that ran down Elliot bank.
The hallowed field/play area south of Horniman's is in Surrey as is the vast majority of Horniman's gardens and so not part of the common as of 1799. Steve has suggested that earlier this play field was part of a pound to keep any stray animals found on the common. (Hensford Pond 1746 Rocque).
The common/county boundary ran to the east of the museum up to the back/north entrance of the gardens where roughly just before the rear gate it met the northern boundary that ran up to Hill House on Honor Oak Rd.
The really exciting thing is that the "Kent field" - a later addition to Horniman gardens on the East side of the boundary behind the nursery, was very much part of the common, and, give or take a few yards to the gate, maps almost perfectly to this upper left hand corner of the common(1799).
This Kent field/hill is my favourite part of the gardens and must be the largest remaining public area of what was Sydenham common.
(Apologies to Steve for anything I misunderstood)
Thanks mate! This side of the common is proving quite difficult for me to envisage, including the various pathways seen on the 1746, 1799 and 1800 Land use maps. I've also been quite puzzled over that Hensford Pond, which I also spotted on the map. There is so much to study in the history of Sydenham and Forest Hill... I also attended Steve's fascinating walk; it's a shame we couldn't have recorded it, in order to reflect back. However, I doubt anyone would have approved of this. One thing Steve never got round to mentioning--perhaps due to time constraints--is about the Atmospheric railway. After reading the Duncan book on the history of Lewisham (I picked up a 190X edition from Abebooks for about a score!), I found out that trains running through Forest Hill station were controlled by atmospheric pressure for 2 years in the 1840s, and I'm wondering if the illustration Steve uploaded to FlickR shows an early Forest Hill station building in the background or whether it's just a general pumping station from another part of London that used the same system?
Everytime I look at a map or something, I always seem to come up with another 20 questions. I wish those photographers of the 1860s would have bothered to take photos of the old Fox & Hounds (both of them!), Peak Hill area, David's Road Croydon Canal remnants and Anerley Gardens. Somebody in the 1850s actually bothered to take a photo of the old Green Man at Southend! We need more earlier Sydenham/Forest Hill photos, especially Sydenham Hill...
Everytime I look at a map or something, I always seem to come up with another 20 questions. I wish those photographers of the 1860s would have bothered to take photos of the old Fox & Hounds (both of them!), Peak Hill area, David's Road Croydon Canal remnants and Anerley Gardens. Somebody in the 1850s actually bothered to take a photo of the old Green Man at Southend! We need more earlier Sydenham/Forest Hill photos, especially Sydenham Hill...
I think I'm going to have to rethink this last bit - there is of course Wells Park which was part of the common!!Falkor wrote:Interesting observation BTW; you might be right...This Kent field/hill is my favourite part of the gardens and must be the largest remaining public area of what was Sydenham common.
Yes the old maps are fascinating.
I too wonder if there are any maps of the canal - I've seen the maps on this site, but I was interested in the Devonshire rd area, and while I've pieced together a likely route, it would be nice to see something to confirm my guesses.
I think the Canal was built in about 1809 and lasted until the late 1830s, when the railway practically replaced it. Unfortunately, the only maps I know about are from 1799/1800 and 1843. I've not seen any other maps from the period in-between, except the Common Enclosure Award Map and one showing what the Mayows owned at the top end of Sydenham High Street. However, I bet there was some sort of map made--either just after it opened or closed--of the Croydon Canal.
-
Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
Oh dear, I had meant to mention it, I just forgot. [The engraving] shows the engine house (with three gables) and the boiler house (with the chimney disguised as a bell tower) that provided power to the atmospheric railway. The view is from the up platform across the line towards Perry Vale. The building was on the site now enclosed by Waldram Park Crescent.Falkor wrote:One thing Steve never got round to mentioning ... is the Atmospheric railway ... I'm wondering if the illustration Steve uploaded to FlickR shows an early Forest Hill station building in the background or whether it's just a general pumping station from another part of London that used the same system?
The carriages are an atmospheric train (with no engine, of course) and the tube by which they were sucked along the track can be seen between the lines. The atmospheric railway was opened in January 1846 and closed the following year. The engine and boiler houses were largely demolished in 1851.
There is a map of the canal, produced by the Croydon Canal Company when the canal was being built. Lewisham Local Studies has a copy, but it is not very useful for working out the route as all it shows, as far as I can recall, are the twists and turns of two parallel lines. There are no other features.
And, Perryman, you were spot on with your answer about the edge of the common.
Wow. I've not seen this map before.Did the building only stand for 5 years or can it be pinpointed on the 1843 map?
I would think the period this map records is sometime between 1836 and 1839, as the canal has clearly closed (August 1836) and the original (pre-atmospheric) railway has not been built yet (opened 5 June 1839).
Or is it that this map indeed shows the area from 1843 and the railway was running, but the map maker did not think these newfangled railway lines were important enough to record?
The map was published in 1843, but could have been surveyed anytime from a few years up to that. I snapped it up from Lewisham Local Studies. Just to recap, here's all the known maps that are useful for the local area:
1745 Rocques
1799 Ordnance Survey
1800 Land use
1810 Common Enclosure
1843 Tithe
1849 Drainage
1862 Stanford
1863 Ordnance Survey?
1865 Ordnance Survey?
1868 Ordnance Survey?
1875 Ordnance Survey
1878 Stanford
1894 Ordnance Survey
1914 Ordnance Survey
+later ones
Steve G has posted excerpts from many different maps published in the 1860s, but I'm not sure if they are all Ordnance Survey, or exactly what they are!? I seem to recall there might even be a map from the 1850s?
1745 Rocques
1799 Ordnance Survey
1800 Land use
1810 Common Enclosure
1843 Tithe
1849 Drainage
1862 Stanford
1863 Ordnance Survey?
1865 Ordnance Survey?
1868 Ordnance Survey?
1875 Ordnance Survey
1878 Stanford
1894 Ordnance Survey
1914 Ordnance Survey
+later ones
Steve G has posted excerpts from many different maps published in the 1860s, but I'm not sure if they are all Ordnance Survey, or exactly what they are!? I seem to recall there might even be a map from the 1850s?
That's what I reckon...but the map maker did not think these newfangled railway lines were important enough to record?
kennyb2:
from http://www.davros.org/rail/atmospheric.html
"The longest <pneumatic railway> line to carry passengers was opened at the Crystal Palace in London in 1864. It used a tunnel about 9 by 10 feet, 1800 feet long. The driving fan was 22 feet across, generating about 0.01 atmosphere of pressure -- the larger the tube, the lower the pressure you need. The vehicle was a full-size broad gauge railway car ringed with bristles; it carried 35 passengers. The trip took 50 seconds, thus averaging about 25 mph."
The carriage was literally blown through the tunnel!
Not the same as the London & Croydon atmospheric railway that ran for 7.5 miles, using a vacuum in a long thin pipe to pull the carriages along.
But interesting all the same. You might be right.
Falkor:
A useful list of maps. Thanks.
If the railway was running at the time the area was surveyed, then the building on/approaching the level crossing might be the first ticket office, located West of/behind what is now the corner bookmakers.
Also the drainage map of 1849 also shows a similar shaped building at the the same place, and we know the railway was running then.
Since this map was published in 1843 and the atmospheric railway did not get permission until 1844, this map is a year early to record any engine/boiler house.
Interestingly, wikipedia (yeah, I know) thinks the engine house is still standing at Forest Hill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_%26_Croydon_Railway
They must be thinking of the MOT garage at 1a Waldram Place. This building certainly looks like an engine house, but it is hardly Gothic in design.
Location wise, I think it is pretty close, with the old coal depot south of it.
But the Stanford map of 1862 has a long thinner building here, which itself might not even be the engine/boiler house.
So I've no-idea what this MOT garage was built for - maybe something to do with trams?
Sorry, not much about Sydenham common in my post.
from http://www.davros.org/rail/atmospheric.html
"The longest <pneumatic railway> line to carry passengers was opened at the Crystal Palace in London in 1864. It used a tunnel about 9 by 10 feet, 1800 feet long. The driving fan was 22 feet across, generating about 0.01 atmosphere of pressure -- the larger the tube, the lower the pressure you need. The vehicle was a full-size broad gauge railway car ringed with bristles; it carried 35 passengers. The trip took 50 seconds, thus averaging about 25 mph."
The carriage was literally blown through the tunnel!
Not the same as the London & Croydon atmospheric railway that ran for 7.5 miles, using a vacuum in a long thin pipe to pull the carriages along.
But interesting all the same. You might be right.
Falkor:
A useful list of maps. Thanks.
If the railway was running at the time the area was surveyed, then the building on/approaching the level crossing might be the first ticket office, located West of/behind what is now the corner bookmakers.
Also the drainage map of 1849 also shows a similar shaped building at the the same place, and we know the railway was running then.
Since this map was published in 1843 and the atmospheric railway did not get permission until 1844, this map is a year early to record any engine/boiler house.
Interestingly, wikipedia (yeah, I know) thinks the engine house is still standing at Forest Hill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_%26_Croydon_Railway
They must be thinking of the MOT garage at 1a Waldram Place. This building certainly looks like an engine house, but it is hardly Gothic in design.
Location wise, I think it is pretty close, with the old coal depot south of it.
But the Stanford map of 1862 has a long thinner building here, which itself might not even be the engine/boiler house.
So I've no-idea what this MOT garage was built for - maybe something to do with trams?
Sorry, not much about Sydenham common in my post.
-
Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
I agree with you, Perryman, that the building on the level crossing was the original booking hall. Because of frequent accidents it was decided remove the crossing in 1842 (just 3 years after the line opened) and by 1844 the road that now takes traffic beneath the railway line had been completed.
The 1843 map that Falkor uploaded is from the Lewisham Tithe map. Until the Tithe Act of 1836 anybody who farmed or tilled land had to pay a tithe (literally 1/10) on what they produced to the church. The 1836 act allowed this payment to be made in the form of rent rather than in kind. The survey records every plot of land on which a tithe was paid, giving each a plot number. From these numbers it is possible to find who owned each plot, who occupied it (ie the tenant), how large the plot was and what it was used for. The triangular plot of land to the right of the large "Y" is where the boiler house was to be built. Unusually this plot is not numbered. However, the two thin strips to the south, on either side of Perry Vale, belonged to the railway company and I'm fairly confident that the unnumbered triangle also belonged to the railway. The reason, Perryman, why the railway line was not shown is that it was simply not relevant to the purpose of the map.
An excellent and very comprehensive history of Forest Hill station (and the source of much of my information) was written some years ago by John Minnis and published in the British Railway Journal No71. He says: "The building [the boiler house] was in 1851 either completely removed or at least the greater part was demolished" and he refers to LB&SC plans to prove his point. There is currently a copy of the journal available on [AbeBooks]
The 1843 map that Falkor uploaded is from the Lewisham Tithe map. Until the Tithe Act of 1836 anybody who farmed or tilled land had to pay a tithe (literally 1/10) on what they produced to the church. The 1836 act allowed this payment to be made in the form of rent rather than in kind. The survey records every plot of land on which a tithe was paid, giving each a plot number. From these numbers it is possible to find who owned each plot, who occupied it (ie the tenant), how large the plot was and what it was used for. The triangular plot of land to the right of the large "Y" is where the boiler house was to be built. Unusually this plot is not numbered. However, the two thin strips to the south, on either side of Perry Vale, belonged to the railway company and I'm fairly confident that the unnumbered triangle also belonged to the railway. The reason, Perryman, why the railway line was not shown is that it was simply not relevant to the purpose of the map.
An excellent and very comprehensive history of Forest Hill station (and the source of much of my information) was written some years ago by John Minnis and published in the British Railway Journal No71. He says: "The building [the boiler house] was in 1851 either completely removed or at least the greater part was demolished" and he refers to LB&SC plans to prove his point. There is currently a copy of the journal available on [AbeBooks]
I found this topic at the SE23 forum, but am unable to join up because they don't accept my type of email address:Falkor:
A useful list of maps. Thanks.
http://www.se23.com/forum/messages/9/10 ... 1174924783
I was looking through a book of mine called the Village London Atlas which basically shows 3 maps of all areas of London from the early 1800's to the early 1900's. The earliest for Forest Hill dates from 1816 clearly shows the route of the canal as it comes through Deptford, Brockley, Forest Hill, Penge Common and on to Croydon. It meanders quite a bit which suggests it follows natural contours. Also what comes across most markedly is how sparesly populated the area was 200 years ago. Forest Hill is a very small village and Brockley, no more than a smattering of farms and houses. Forest Hill road still runs up from Peckham Rye but there are only 2 roads running off it through and past Forest Hill. Honor Oak road (I think) runs through the village which seems to be slightly north and west of where the station is now. By the next map (from an 1861-71 survey) the canal has gone, and a couple of railway lines running near and past Forest Hill. The London Brighton and South Coast line which runns through Forest Hill and the Crystal Palace London Inner High Level Line which runs to the west down through Sydneham Hill to Crystal Palace. The huge "Crystal Palace" is clearly marked. Fascinating.
What on earth is this 1816 map Johnc is referring to as showing the canal running through Deptford, Brockley, Forest Hill, Penge Common and on to Croydon?
Does it also show buildings? 
Has anyone else seen this "Village London Atlas" book? I assume it's the same book as this one:http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookD ... %26sts%3Dt
Steve, are you aware of this map by any chance??
Yep; IT'S TRUE!!! 
There really is a map, published in 1816, showing the canal running through all those areas, along with the buildings. The source is the British Library, and I reckon they must have a higher-scale version because the later maps shown in the book are also of a particular low scale with houses represented by blotches:
Observations
*Brockley side looks similar to the 1833 map surveyed by a different group, so that's a good sign.
*Honor Oak Wood looks about right for this time with the woodland stretching along the eastern bank of the canal down to Stanstead Road.
*First home already built in Stanstead Road.
*One Tree Hill pathways are clearly defined; need to compare with other maps to try and find out when/how Honor Oak Park was formed.
*No Wharves around David Roads/Forest Hill!
*Bird-in-hand Passage (1815) not built/shown at the time map was surveyed.
*Dartmouth Arms (1814) not built/shown at the time map was surveyed.
*No Sydenham Rise/Elliot Bank.
*Complicated picture around Sydenham Reservoir!
-Appears to be a path along the dam of what was to become Sydenham Park Road and even Round Hill!
-The whole of Albion Villas Road/Millenium Green area appears to be a 2nd reservoir joined onto the canal, which itself is not as wide around this stretch as I would have guessed.
-Edge of reservoir is not flat as shown in the Sydenham Common painting with something in-between the damn we're unable to make out at this scale.
-Feeders/streams not shown, except around Penge Common! Ken Kiss was right about the watercourse he predicted as not being shown on a later map.
*There is a building up Round Hill and a possible 2-3 at the foot (in Dartmouth Road).
*Some Kirkdale/old Sydenham High Street shops building at the top, including possibly those surviving pair of cottages.
*3-4 Kirkdale buildings around the Mount Gardens area.
*2 Kirkdale buildings at the junction with Wells Park Road and Jews Walk, near the reservoir.
*Taylors Lane and surviving cottages built earlier than I thought!
*2 other buildings along the eastern side of Wells Park Road, besides the cottages that were already there on the 1799 map.
*Peak Hill and Dog Kennel Houses split up by the Canal.
*Doo's Whalf, The Cottage, The Bridge look to be shown at the canal's junction with Sydenham Road.
*Penge Place built earlier than 1836!
*No Penge Whalf!?
Will edit whenever I spot anything else regarding the Croydon Canal and early development on the former Sydenham Common...
Please feel free to add your comments, too!
There really is a map, published in 1816, showing the canal running through all those areas, along with the buildings. The source is the British Library, and I reckon they must have a higher-scale version because the later maps shown in the book are also of a particular low scale with houses represented by blotches:Observations
*Brockley side looks similar to the 1833 map surveyed by a different group, so that's a good sign.
*Honor Oak Wood looks about right for this time with the woodland stretching along the eastern bank of the canal down to Stanstead Road.
*First home already built in Stanstead Road.
*One Tree Hill pathways are clearly defined; need to compare with other maps to try and find out when/how Honor Oak Park was formed.
*No Wharves around David Roads/Forest Hill!
*Bird-in-hand Passage (1815) not built/shown at the time map was surveyed.
*Dartmouth Arms (1814) not built/shown at the time map was surveyed.
*No Sydenham Rise/Elliot Bank.
*Complicated picture around Sydenham Reservoir!
-Appears to be a path along the dam of what was to become Sydenham Park Road and even Round Hill!
-The whole of Albion Villas Road/Millenium Green area appears to be a 2nd reservoir joined onto the canal, which itself is not as wide around this stretch as I would have guessed.
-Edge of reservoir is not flat as shown in the Sydenham Common painting with something in-between the damn we're unable to make out at this scale.
-Feeders/streams not shown, except around Penge Common! Ken Kiss was right about the watercourse he predicted as not being shown on a later map.
*There is a building up Round Hill and a possible 2-3 at the foot (in Dartmouth Road).
*Some Kirkdale/old Sydenham High Street shops building at the top, including possibly those surviving pair of cottages.
*3-4 Kirkdale buildings around the Mount Gardens area.
*2 Kirkdale buildings at the junction with Wells Park Road and Jews Walk, near the reservoir.
*Taylors Lane and surviving cottages built earlier than I thought!
*2 other buildings along the eastern side of Wells Park Road, besides the cottages that were already there on the 1799 map.
*Peak Hill and Dog Kennel Houses split up by the Canal.
*Doo's Whalf, The Cottage, The Bridge look to be shown at the canal's junction with Sydenham Road.
*Penge Place built earlier than 1836!
*No Penge Whalf!?
Will edit whenever I spot anything else regarding the Croydon Canal and early development on the former Sydenham Common...
Please feel free to add your comments, too!
![[The engraving]](http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/393323346_3a252efd47_b.jpg){kind=link}