Petition to Support the Redevelopment of All Inn One

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Re: Petition to Support the Redevelopment of All Inn One

Postby JGD » 1 Dec 2018 12:56

marymck wrote:Sorry JGD but I still can't see anything about that in the planning application documents. As I'm sure you know, anyone can make a planning application. An applicant doesn't have to own the site or even have any kind of contract arrangement in place. The planning application's "Declaration of Ownership" states the site is still owned by Julia and Richard Channon and it was this I was looking at, not the Land Registry records as I know these lag behind reality. But if you have inside knowledge that it's definitely been sold to these developers, then of course I accept your word for it. I do think it a great shame that the pub didn't go on the open market though.


Section 2 of the Application Form defines the name and address of the applicant - and that is NOT Richard and Julia Channon.

Section 3 of the Application Form defines the Agents Name and Address.

It is very precise of you to to say that anyone can make a planning application.

It is also accurate to state that the process of making a Planning Application does have some very effective checks and balances.

Some of these are very specifically defined in Section 25 of the Application Form which states:

Section 25
CERTIFICATE OF OWNERSHIP - CERTIFICATE B - Town and Country Planning (Development Management Procedure) (England) Order 2015 Certificate under Article 14
I certify/The applicant certifies that I have/the applicant has given the requisite notice to everyone else (as listed below) who, on the day 21 days before the date of this application, was the owner* and/or agricultural tenant** of any part of the land or building to which this application relates.
* 'owner' is a person with a freehold interest or leasehold interest with at least 7 years left to run. ** 'agricultural tenant' has the meaning given in section 65(8) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990


This Decalaration provides protection from fraudulent submissions being made for a property without the owner being notified. This prevents just anyone from making ad-hoc Planning Applications that may blight the property or its value.

In practice it works this way. The planning authority can check the Declaration made by the Applicant about the ownership details and will notify the Land Registry. The authority also may notify the registered owner. The Land Registry in turn can advise the registered owner that an application has been made with an option to respond if they have not received formal notification in line with the applicant's declaration at Section 25. Equally if the registered owner has received formal notification, they need do nothing.

As I understand it the registered owners in this case received the required notifications from all parties.

It is interesting that you positively state your regret that the pub didn't go on the open market. If you do have insight about how it was marketed perhaps you can share those details with us.

Armed with that knowledge, how would you have preferred it to be done and how different do you think the outcome would have been ?

Oh, and please do not feel obliged to take my views as being the authoritative or definitive version of the matters of fact around the sale. The declarations of Mr Mark Harris of Vanquish ID on both their company's web-site and in the local press are unequivocal about the sale.

As is Julia Channon's post about the sale on a local forum.
JGD
 
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Re: Petition to Support the Redevelopment of All Inn One

Postby marymck » 1 Dec 2018 15:32

JGD wrote:
marymck wrote:Sorry JGD but I still can't see anything about that in the planning application documents. As I'm sure you know, anyone can make a planning application. An applicant doesn't have to own the site or even have any kind of contract arrangement in place. The planning application's "Declaration of Ownership" states the site is still owned by Julia and Richard Channon and it was this I was looking at, not the Land Registry records as I know these lag behind reality. But if you have inside knowledge that it's definitely been sold to these developers, then of course I accept your word for it. I do think it a great shame that the pub didn't go on the open market though.


Section 2 of the Application Form defines the name and address of the applicant - and that is NOT Richard and Julia Channon.

Section 3 of the Application Form defines the Agents Name and Address.

It is very precise of you to to say that anyone can make a planning application.

It is also accurate to state that the process of making a Planning Application does have some very effective checks and balances.

Some of these are very specifically defined in Section 25 of the Application Form which states:

Section 25
CERTIFICATE OF OWNERSHIP - CERTIFICATE B - Town and Country Planning (Development Management Procedure) (England) Order 2015 Certificate under Article 14
I certify/The applicant certifies that I have/the applicant has given the requisite notice to everyone else (as listed below) who, on the day 21 days before the date of this application, was the owner* and/or agricultural tenant** of any part of the land or building to which this application relates.
* 'owner' is a person with a freehold interest or leasehold interest with at least 7 years left to run. ** 'agricultural tenant' has the meaning given in section 65(8) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990


This Decalaration provides protection from fraudulent submissions being made for a property without the owner being notified. This prevents just anyone from making ad-hoc Planning Applications that may blight the property or its value.

In practice it works this way. The planning authority can check the Declaration made by the Applicant about the ownership details and will notify the Land Registry. The authority also may notify the registered owner. The Land Registry in turn can advise the registered owner that an application has been made with an option to respond if they have not received formal notification in line with the applicant's declaration at Section 25. Equally if the registered owner has received formal notification, they need do nothing.

As I understand it the registered owners in this case received the required notifications from all parties.

It is interesting that you positively state your regret that the pub didn't go on the open market. If you do have insight about how it was marketed perhaps you can share those details with us.

Armed with that knowledge, how would you have preferred it to be done and how different do you think the outcome would have been ?

Oh, and please do not feel obliged to take my views as being the authoritative or definitive version of the matters of fact around the sale. The declarations of Mr Mark Harris of Vanquish ID on both their company's web-site and in the local press are unequivocal about the sale.

As is Julia Channon's post about the sale on a local forum.


Hmmm that reads quite sharp JGD. But I'm sure you didn't mean to sound so. However I will rephrase to say that I have seen no evidence that it was on the open market. If it was I would have expected the All Inn One's sale to have been advertised in the commercial or specialist pub sectors, which I regularly scan and from whom I receive regular alerts. As the sale appears to have taken everyone by surprise, I of course don't know how different the outcome would have been if it had been advertised. And of course the owners were at complete liberty to sell to whomsoever they please. I merely think it a shame that the legacy of generations of landlords, some good, some not so good, should be the obliteration of a good local public house without even knowing if a new owner (such as Garry Mullen or someone of his form) would have taken it on and built on its success and place in the community without demolishing it. Drinking in a hotel bar, to me has always been a pretty soulless experience compared to a pub garden or warm and welcoming local.

I have already said that I accept your word that the sale is complete (i e. that "the matter of the sale is behind us") and not dependent on the outcome of the planning decision. I must have missed Julia Channon's and Mark Harris's posts and comments to this effect though and would be grateful if you could share the link. Thanks.
marymck
 
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Location: Upper Kirkdale

Re: Petition to Support the Redevelopment of All Inn One

Postby JGD » 1 Dec 2018 16:20

Julia's link:
https://se23.life/t/all-inn-one-calling-time/9834/8

Vanquish ID link:
http://www.vanquishiconic.com/crib-11/

News Shopper Item:
https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/17241219.plan-to-demolish-all-inn-one-pub-for-hotel-defended-by-developer/


marymck wrote:Hmmm that reads quite sharp JGD. But I'm sure you didn't mean to sound so


You could not be more accurate. It was not written so and perhaps only reads sharp.

It is a very dry subject and the detail can be viewed as boring - to quote Robin Orton from another matter.

However it would seem to be local knowledge that you are a member of the SydSoc exec with some involvement in The Windmill matter.

Hence I had some anticipation that you would have some knowledge and practical experience of such matters, pubs and the like, and I responded in such a manner as to respect that experience.

marymck wrote:I have already said that I accept your word that the sale is complete (i e. that "the matter of the sale is behind us") and not dependent on the outcome of the planning decision.


You repeat that assurance. I accept it without reservation.

I have no material interest in this matter except to see a pub re-established on the site and to see as many material benefits as is possible delivered from the area's wider redevelopment for Forest Hill and Sydenham.

Your queries are not viewed as being negative and I do have a care that the welfare of Richard and Julia, who have become very close friends in recent years, is not harmed by speculation that has minimal basis in hard fact as expressed by others.
JGD
 
Posts: 288
Joined: 5 Feb 2018 11:39
Location: Lewisham

Re: Petition to Support the Redevelopment of All Inn One

Postby marymck » 1 Dec 2018 17:10

JGD wrote:

it would seem to be local knowledge that you are a member of the SydSoc exec with some involvement in The Windmill matter.



Many thanks JGD for taking the time to reply and for the hepful links. I do appreciate it.

Just one thing though: I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the SydSoc exec committee. But I do sit on the Conservation and Planning sub committee (though time pressures mean I'm not as active a member as I'd like to be) and I have been involved in the campaign to save the Windmill.
marymck
 
Posts: 1567
Joined: 9 Feb 2008 16:30
Location: Upper Kirkdale

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