Making sense of Penge Common

The History of Sydenham from Cippenham to present day. Links to photos especially welcome!

Moderator: frenzarin

Making sense of Penge Common

Postby Falkor » 17 Mar 2008 22:07

Below is my understanding of Penge Common based on it's area and boundaries. Please correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to discuss further...

1) The *whole* of Penge was an area of woodland belonging to the parish of Battersea, known as Penge Common, originally part of the Great North Wood like Sydenham (Westwood) and Norwood Commons.
2) Trees were cut down to form pasture for locals to graze their animals, and also re-grown in designated areas known as coppices (done in rotation). Ancient trackways, like Croydon Road, ran through the common, though building cottages and living on the common was illegal.
3) The boundaries of Penge Parish (originally Battersea detached) are the original boundaries of Penge Common.
4) The boundary between Croydon and Penge parishes was also the boundary between Norwood and Penge commons.
5) Penge Place, Clay Farm, and all pre-enclosure buildings along Penge Lane, Green Lane, Croydon Road and Beckenham Road, within the boundaries of Penge Parish (Battersea detached), were all old illegal enclosures.
6) The first cottage ever built in Penge, when it first became occupied sometime between the Domesday survey and the 1200s, was an illegal act.

If all this is true then what of the ownership of cottages, gardens and other land belonging to the 50 or so occupants of Penge before and after the 1827-1837 enclosure? :?: Did inhabitants lose possession of their ancient timber buildings, including land which they were built upon, to the richest landowners of surrounding parishes?
Falkor
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Postby MartinH » 18 Mar 2008 07:56

Falkor do you know when Penge ceased to become a parish and became a hamlet?, or vice versa.
MartinH
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 10:17
Location: Sydenham SE26

Postby Falkor » 18 Mar 2008 09:27

Presumably, once Penge became inhabited, and the boundaries of Penge Common illegally shifted towards the center, people would have realised they had no local church to attend. Penge would have then been described as a hamlet thereafter. It only became a parish after St. John's Church was built. Before that, residents would visit Beckenham Chuch, since Battersea was too far away.
Falkor
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Postby MartinH » 18 Mar 2008 21:14

And when was St. John's built?
MartinH
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 10:17
Location: Sydenham SE26

Postby Falkor » 18 Mar 2008 21:52

1849. Before that, there was a St. John's Chapel built in the early 1840s, at the corner of Beckenham Road and Croydon Road (Penge Lodge was hidden behind).
Falkor
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Postby MartinH » 19 Mar 2008 07:45

Very interesting Falkor. I wish I could upload my photos because I have conclusive proof that Penge was still a hamlet in 1875.
MartinH
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 10:17
Location: Sydenham SE26

Postby Falkor » 19 Mar 2008 10:58

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence, though I doubt it would be "conclusive proof". You must realise that a lot of people don't understand what a hamlet is, nor the difference between a chapel of ease and official parish church. It's possible that Penge is still being referred to as a hamlet now!

In order to answer that very simple question I came up with last year, "how do I know which hamlet, town or village I'm in?", I had to conduct a lot of research, and the question turned out to have a very complicated answer based around boroughs, post codes and parishes. Anyway, it was whilst researching this I found out all about parishes and parish boundaries.

I learnt that when a hamlet becomes an official parish in it's own right, it has to go through a court of law and, what is referred to as the "Orders-in-council", are published in a couple of sources, including the London Gazette. A map is also drawn up to show the boundaries of the new parish, and they have been deposited at the Church Commissioners office in Westminster.

I will have a search of the London Gazette to see if I can find the entry for Penge, St Johns. This would give primary proof as to when Penge first went from a hamlet to an official parish.
Falkor
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Postby Falkor » 19 Mar 2008 13:10

I can't seem to find out when St John became a "District Chapelry" (same as Parish), but have found an entry for St Paul (didn't know there was another parish created inside Penge):
Image
Image
Other secondary sources are claiming that Penge became a parish in 1851 or 1855.
Falkor
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Postby MartinH » 20 Mar 2008 09:34

Falkor, just managad to work out how to upload photos at last. Surely the district council knew what they were doing in 1875.


Image
MartinH
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 10:17
Location: Sydenham SE26

Postby Falkor » 20 Mar 2008 10:06

That's probably the Lewisham Board of Works! :D The council system is seperate to the ecclesiastical system. As you can see from the evidence taken out the London Gazette, Penge had already 2 parishes formed by the time that boundary post was put down. The hamlet part should have been dropped, but obviously they didn't realise. If people were still paying tithes to the church and practising beating the bounds each year then they would have known. It's even worse these days... people are almost oblivious to their local parishes.
Falkor
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 17:45
Location: Surrey Quays

Postby mcleanmuir » 22 Mar 2008 00:22

Martin,

Would you be so kind as to let me know where was the photo please?

mcleanmuir
mcleanmuir
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 08:03
Location: West Wickham


Return to Town Museum & Gallery

 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest