Early Penge History: problems with research

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Early Penge History: problems with research

Postby Falkor » 7 Feb 2010 13:20

Penge and Beckenham were probably timeless villages that experienced very little change over the centuries--until the 19th--when many old buildings (some of great antiquity) were demolished to make way for new Victorian parades.

Here is a typical photo showing the War Memorial end of Beckenham High Street:
Image
Reading the principle postcard book on Beckenham and West Wickham, one may be totally unaware of an earlier photo and previous wave of buildings as seen in this photo from the Beckenham History website:
Image
From this valuable photo, which we are lucky to have, we get an idea of how this part of the high street once had weatherboarded cottages. Just to the right of this photo would have been the Post Office and local Smithy!

As for Penge, the photographic record is extremely poor! Here's the problem: how do we go from this...
Image
...to this!
Image

Image
The earliest photos of Beckenham Road (Penge High Street) are from the early 1900s (1890s at a push). With Beckenham, Catford, Lewisham and Sydenham we have photos from the 1860s--or at least illustrations of Sydenham that show demolished buildings, side-by-side, in context with survivors (or buildings that survived long enough to be photographed).

The reason for Penge's lack of historic visibility is due to the lack of an early photographer, but also due to the Crystal Palace, whose success marked the eradication of Penge's early heritage. The earliest photo of Penge High Street shows the predecessor to the Central Exchange (see above photo), but this building was only built since post-enclosure times:
Image
It would have helped if this photographer was pointing his camera 100 degrees to the left! He would have seen Penge Lodge, which was the biggest and probably the most important building in Penge before the Palace and before the enclosure.

Penge needs somebody like John Coulter to research it. It's certainly proving very difficult for an amateur historian like myself--especially without the (missing) Tithe map/apportionment. It seems old farm buildings and Waterman Arm's stables were in existence during the postcard age, but were hidden behind Victorian parades on the northern side:
Image
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Postby Falkor » 7 Feb 2010 13:34

What were the last timber-framed buildings standing in Penge? And what decade did they last till? 1860s, 1870s, 1880s or later? I have building dates for all the highlighted buildings below, and any others could have been old timber framed buildings--particularly those in grey--if not then weatherboard post-enclosure or Victorian of 1854-1857:
Image
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Postby Falkor » 7 Feb 2010 13:55

Perhaps some people are under the impression that not much was happening in Penge before the enclosure and the arrival of the Crystal Palace. It's interesting to compare these earlier maps of 1745 and 1799:
Image

Image

Here's an 1851 directory of pre-palace Penge:
Image
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Postby tulse hill terry » 7 Feb 2010 17:33

All very Cranford / Larkrise to Candelford!

Great start, it sometimes helps to transcribe, here's my attempt, anyone want to check it?

Penge, or Penge Common, is a hamlet of the parish of Battersea, Croydon Union, east division of Brixton Hundred, and jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court and Metropolitan Police, 7 miles from London, situated between Sydenham and Norwood, bounded by Beckenham. The London, Brighton and South Coast Railway passes through, having a station adjoining Anerley. The watermen and lightermen have an asylum here, containing 41 houses, ad a commodious committee room. King William's Naval Asylum is for decayed widows of naval officers. St. John the Evangelist was erected by public subscription. The number of acres is 1,840.

BAKER, William R, esq. - Anerley Road.

BANKS, William Esq. - Penge Common

CORTISSES Hy, Brandon, Esq. - Penge Lane

CURRY Henry, Esq - Penge Lane

DAIKERS James, Esq

FLEET James, Esq

FLEET John George, Esq

FRITH Edward, Esq - Penge Lane

GEBUROE John, Esq

GIRDLER William, Esq

HOWES William Henry, Esq - Anerley Hill

HUBBARD William, Esq - Penge Cottage

MAITLAND Joseph, Esq - Anerley Hill

MAPLESTONE Charles, Esq - Adelaide Road

MAUGHAM Thomas, Esq - Penge Lane

MELLUISH William 'Oxenford' Esq, Anerley Hill

MOSER Richard, Esq - 1 Royston Villas

NIX John Nix Esq

PEERSON George, Esq Gothic Lodge

PHILIPS John, Esq

PULLING Robert Esq - St Arvan's Lodge

PUZEY Thomas, Esq - Penge Lane

RIDGEWAY Rev. Joseph, M.A. - Adelaide Road

SCHUSTER Leo - Penge Park

SHARPE Henry, Esq - Penge Common

SPINKS William Frederick, Esq - 2 Royston Villas

STRAITH Major Hector - Penge Lane

THOMAS Henry

TREVELEYAN Walyetr Blackett esq Anerley Hill

VERNON John Yardley Penge Lane

WATSON John Esq - Anerley Road

TRADERS

BECKMASTER William - Anerley Tavern & Railway Station

CADE Richard Willis - grocer

COUSINS Stephen - gents' bdg schl anerley Hill

CUSACK Henry - boot & shoe maker

ELLIOT Misses Mary Sarah & Elizabeth - ladies boarding school, Anerley hill

HELLEDGE Robert, - tea gardens, Penge Common

KINGSTON Henry - confectioner and baker

MATHEW Michael - "Crooked Billet'

NOWELL Wlliam- beer retailer, &c. Anerley Hill

PETTIT Daniel Pettit - butcher

POLE William - butcher

ROGERS William - farmer, Clay Hill

RUSKIN Edward - cowper & farmer, Hayes Farm

SELF Samuel - farmer

SNAZEL George - bricklayer & plasterer Pemge LAne

THORP Walter - grocer & cheesmonger, Aldelaide road

UNDERWOOD - Robert - haberdasher

VIVIANE John Ely - Royal Beaulah Spa teas gardens, Hamelt Road

WILSON William - grocer & beer retailer

WRENN, William - Farmer, Porcupine Farm

POST OFFICE

Nearest receiving house. Westow Street, Norwood

PUBLIC ESTABLISHMENTS

Almshouses for the Poor, Aged, Decayed & Maimed Free Waterman & Lightermen of the River Thames, & their Widows, John Wellock, master warden; Mrs Mary Whelock, matron.

King William's Naval Asylum for twelve widows of Commisioned Naval Officers

North Surrey District Industrial School, for the Unions of Wandsorth & Clapham, Richmond, Kingston, Croydon, Lewisham, and the parishes of St. Like, Chelsea, & St. Mary Newington, Rev. Edward Rudge, M.A. chaplain; John Sanders, steward.

St John the Evangekist Church, Rev. Joseph Ridgeway, M.A. incumbent.

National School, for boys and girls, Miss Harry Flora West, Mistress.

CONVEYANCE.- Railway very hour from Anerley Station of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway.

CARRIERS.- Henry Clark & Jason Dowse call at 'Crooked Billet,' daily.
Last edited by tulse hill terry on 7 Feb 2010 18:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Falkor » 7 Feb 2010 18:05

Thanks! Perhaps you'd be generous enough to help me finish this and/or fill in any question marks?

Farm At Penge 9-4-1800 (452.1)
Side 1...
Side 2...
An Agreement made the ninth day of april
one thousand eight hundred between Edward Brooke
of norwood in the parish of croydon in the County of Surrey
gentleman of the one one part and William Wrenn of Penge
in the Parish of Battersea in the said County of Surrey
gentleman of the other part.

The said Edward Brooke agrees to let to the said William Wrenn and
he agreed to take all that messuage as Tenement with the barn stable
cowhouse and other outbuildings and appurtenances ? belonging (except the
? stall stable which is to be reserved for the use of the said Edward Brooke
together with a right of way thru' the yard to and from the same for himself
or his servants and horses) and also all that field of meadow land
adjoining the said mesuage ? tenement and premises and containing by
estimation seven acres be the same more or less which said messuage ?
tenement land and premises all situate within the hamlet of penge aforesaid
and all now in the occupation of the said William Wrenn. And also all those
? several fields of arable land one of them containing by estimation nine
acres another eight aces another four acres another nine acres and the other
four acres be the same respectively more or less) and one field of meadow
land containing by estimation six acres be the same more or less all
which said six fields last mentioned all situate in the parish of Beckenham
in the county of Kent and are now also in the occupation of the said William
Wrenn (except and reserved all timber and all other trees with power for the said
Edward Brooke and all other person whom it may concern to enter the lands
and cut down and carry away the same). Go hold all the said premises
(except as aforesaid) for the term of twenty one years to be completed from the
twenty ninth day of September now last past at the yearly rent of ninety four
pounds payable half yearly the said William Wrenn paying all taxes (except
the landtax) and also paying the tythe. The said William Wrenn is to keep
the buildings and fences in good repair and the land well cultivated
manured and managed according to the custom of the country and is not to
plow up any of the meadow land. The said Edward Brooke and all other
persons whom it may concern are to have liberty at all times to enter upon the
premises and see the state of repairs and upon their leaving at the dwellinghouse
a written notice of what may be found wanting the said William Wrenn is to make
good the same within one calendar month after the leaving of such notice at

the end of the term the said William Wrenn is to leave nine acres of ?
cleaned and dunged which are to be paid for by the said Edward Brooke at a fair
valuation to be made by two persons (one to be chosen by each party) or in case of
their disagreement by ? ? to be chosen by such two persons. The said
William Wrenn is also to leave seven acres of land half ? without being
paid for the same (as the said William Wrenn enters upon seven acres half ?)
and whatever seeds may be sown at the end of the said term are to be paid for
by the said Edward Brooke at the fair valuation. The dung that shall be
left in the yard in the last year of the term is to remain there for the benefit of the said Edward
Brooke without his paying anything for the same and for as many loads of hay and
straw as shall be taken off the premises in the last year there is to be brought on a load
of dung.
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Postby Falkor » 7 Feb 2010 18:08

What about this one?

Sussex Lodge, Sydenham Road, Penge 3-Sep-1863 (770)
1...
2...
3...
4...
5...
6...
7...
8...
9...
10...
THIS INDENTURE made the third day of September one thousand eight hundred and sixty three Between Thomas Maugham of No 11 Lee
Park Blackheath in the County of Kent Esquire of the one part and Edgar Bicknell of White Lion Street Bishopsgate in the County of Middlesex
Esquire of the other part. Witnesseth that for and in consideration of the rents covenants and agreements hereafter reserved and contained
on the part of the said Edgar Bicknell his executors administrators and a signs to be paid done and beyond. He the said Thomas Maugham BOTH by
these presents demise and lease unto the said Edgar Bicknell his executors administrators and asigns All that piece of land situate and being at Penge in the Parish of Battersea and County of Surrey the
dimensions abuttals and boundaries whereof are more particularly described in the plan drawn in the margin of these presents with the messauge or tenement thereon erected and which is known by the name of
"Sussex Lodge" Penge aforesaid with the rights members and appertenances to the said Messauge or Tenement belonging or appertaining To have and to hold the said piece of land with the messauge or
tenement and premises herely demised with the appertenances unto the said Edgar Bicknell his executors administrators and asigns? from the twenty ninth day of September last for and during the tenth
March the twenty forth day of June and the twenty ninth day of September in each and every year by equal portions free and clear of all rates and taxes whatsoever except the Land tax Sewers rate and the
Landlords property tax the first payment of the said
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Postby tulse hill terry » 7 Feb 2010 18:31

What a load of dung!

Have underlined my guesses, the rules of f's instead of s's isn't supposed to be consistent I believe, so the last word is 'dressed' I think, although spelt 'dresfed.'

Side One

An Agreement made the ninth day of april
one thousand eight hundred between Edward Brooke
of norwood in the parish of croydon in the County of Surrey
gentleman of the one one part and William Wrenn of Penge
in the Parish of Battersea in the said County of Surrey
gentleman of the other part.

The said Edward Brooke agrees to let to the said William Wrenn and
he agreed to take all that messuage as Tenement with the barn stable
cowhouse and other outbuildings and appurtenances thereto belonging (except the
two stall stable which is to be reserved for the use of the said Edward Brooke
together with a right of way thro' the yard to and from the same for himself
or his servants and horses) and also all that field of meadow land
adjoining the said mesuage or tenement and premises and containing by
estimation seven acres be the same more or less which said messuage or
tenement land and premises all situate within the hamlet of penge aforesaid
and all now in the occupation of the said William Wrenn. And also all those
five several fields of arable land one of them containing by estimation nine
acres another eight aces another four acres another nine acres and the other
four acres be the same respectively more or less) and one field of meadow
land containing by estimation six acres be the same more or less all
which said six fields last mentioned all situate in the parish of Beckenham
in the county of Kent and are now also in the occupation of the said William
Wrenn (except and reserved all timber and all other trees with power for the said
Edward Brooke and all other person whom it may concern to enter the lands
and cut down and carry away the same). Go hold all the said premises
(except as aforesaid) for the term of twenty one years to be completed from the
twenty ninth day of September now last past at the yearly rent of ninety four
pounds payable half yearly the said William Wrenn paying all taxes (except
the landtax) and also paying the tythe. The said William Wrenn is to keep
the buildings and fences in good repair and the land well cultivated
manured and managed according to the custom of the country and is not to
plow up any of the meadow land. The said Edward Brooke and all other
persons whom it may concern are to have liberty at all times to enter upon the
premises and see the state of repairs and upon their leaving at the dwellinghouse
a written notice of what may be found wanting the said William Wrenn is to make
good the same within one calendar month after the leaving of such notice at


Side Two

the end of the term the said William Wrenn is to leave nine acres of fallow
cleaned and dunged which are to be paid for by the said Edward Brooke at a fair
valuation to be made by two persons (one to be chosen by each party) or in case of
their disagreement by an umpire to be chosen by such two persons. The said
William Wrenn is also to leave seven acres of land half ? without being
paid for the same (as the said William Wrenn enters upon seven acres half dressed?)
and whatever seeds may be sown at the end of the said term are to be paid for
by the said Edward Brooke at the fair valuation. The dung that shall be
left in the yard in the last year of the term is to remain there for the benefit of the said Edward
Brooke without his paying anything for the same and for as many loads of hay and
straw as shall be taken off the premises in the last year there is to be brought on a load
of dung.
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Postby tulse hill terry » 7 Feb 2010 19:33

Nightmare! Victorian script in pale ink, very creased and each line in two seperate photos, here's how far I got before I have to get back to what I should be writing . . .

of FOURTEEN YEARS from thence next ensuing (determinable nevertheless as hereintofor mentioned FIELDING AND ? then? for yearly and every year unto the said Thomas Maugham his

executors administrators and assigns the yearly rent a sum of NINIETY POUNDS sterling during the said term such rent to be payable quarterly on the twenty fifth day of September last for and during the term

March the twenty fourth day of June and the twentyninth day of September in each and every year by equal portions free and clear of all rates and taxes whatsover except the land tax Sewers rate and the

landlords property for the first payment of the said rent to be made on the twentyfifth day of December now next ensuing AND the said Edgar Bicknell doth hereby for himself and his heirs executors and

administrators covenant and agree with and to the said Thomas Maughamhis executors administrators and assigns in manner following viz That the said Edgar Bicknell his executors administrators and

assigns shall and will yearly and every year during the said term pay or cause to be paid unto the said Thomas Maugham his his executors administraors os assigns the said rent of Ninety pounds herein /crease

reserved on the days and in the proportions hearin [CREASE] appointed for payment thereof free from all deductions and abatements whatsoever except the Land tax and sewers rates and the Landlords property

tax. AND ALSO shall and will at his and their own costs and charges at all times during the said term hereby granted pay all the taxes tithe commulation? rent charge and all Parliamentary ?inkblot

and other taxes now or at any time hereafter during the said term hereby granted to become due and payable out or in respect of the hereby demised premises or any part thereof of chargeable on the

landlord or tenant for the time being in respect thereof the Land Tax and sewers rate and the Landlords property tax only excepted AND ALSO that the said Edgar Bicknell his executors administrators

and assigns shall and will at his and their like costs and charges from time to time and at all times during the sadi term hereby granted will and substantially repair and uphold the

said Messuage or Tenement and promises hereby demised. AND ALSO shall and will at his and their like costs and charges well and substantially paint or cause to be painted once in every three years of

the said term all the external wood and ironwork belonging to the said demised premises with two coats of good oil colours and the internal wood and ironwork of the same premises in the same manner once

in every seven years of the said term And at the end or other sooner determination of the said term hereby granted shall and will be peaceably and quietly leave surrender and yield up to the said Thomas Maugham

his executors administrators and assigns the said messuage or tenement and other the premises hereby demised withtthe appertuances to witt and substantially repaired and upheld as aforesaid together

with all Such landlords fixtures and things as now are or which at any time during the said term hereby granted shall be fixed or fastened or set up in or upon or to the said six?

demised premises or any part thereof in good plight repair and condition ( reasonable wear and tear thereof expected), AND ALSO shall and will permit and suffer the said

Thomas Maugham his executors administrators and assigns and his and their surveyor or Workmen and others at reasonable times in the daytime to enter and upon the said

demised premises to view search and see the state and condition thereof and of such decays and wants of repair as shall on every such view be then and there found to give a leave

Notice in writing upon the said demised premises for the said Edgar Bicknell his executors administrators and assigns to repair the same within three calender months then next

following within which time or space of three Calender months the said Edgar Bicknell his executors adminstrators or assigns shall and eill repair the same accordingly. AND ALSO that

it shall and may be lawful? for the said Thomas Maugham his executors administraors

sewers drains channels and watercourses in by and through the hereby demised premises to view search and see the state and condition

Notice in writing upon the said demised premises for the

foloowing within which time or space of three calender months

it shall and may be lawful for the said Thomas Maugham



Thought it may have been these Bicknells as they were a South london family and donated sculptural casts to the Crystal Palace, but obviously not. . . .

http://www.marcusbicknell.co.uk/obh/obh2.htm
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Postby Falkor » 9 Feb 2010 20:22

Good work, Terry! 8) What are you writing about BTW?

I'll try and scan my Penge wills progress sometime to see if anyone can give a helping hand with that... :)
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Postby mcleanmuir » 11 Feb 2010 11:28

Falkor wrote:Perhaps some people are under the impression that not much was happening in Penge before the enclosure and the arrival of the Crystal Palace. It's interesting to compare these earlier maps of 1745 and 1799:
Image

Image

Here's an 1851 directory of pre-palace Penge:
Image


Well done Falkor with this one. It shows "The Porcupine". One of the areas oldest pubs on record. I think I am right in saying it was in Penge Lane.
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Postby mcleanmuir » 11 Feb 2010 11:31

Also showing is The Willmore Bridge in Beckenham Road.
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Re: Early Penge History: problems with research

Postby wrenn » 2 Mar 2012 02:50

Hi,

I'm not sure if anyone will see this as the original post was a while ago - but I was facinated to read of the rental agreement from 1800 between Edward Brooke and William Wrenn of Penge. I'm very interested to know where 'Falkor' found this document. I believe that William Wrenn is my ancestor but I've been having trouble finding any parish records from Penge as I'm in New Zealand.

Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: Early Penge History: problems with research

Postby mauricem » 30 May 2012 11:00

I was intersted to find your forum as I am currently reserching Thomas Maugham who is one of my ancestors - I live in New Zealand.

Does anyone know what exactly Sussex Lodge was - was it a boarding house or pub of some kind?? I believe Thomas Maugham was a merchant of some kind (silk I think).

I know he moved to Lee after he leased his Penge property and died only a few years later - 1868.
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