Mural?

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JMLF
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Re: Mural?

Post by JMLF » 6 Feb 2018 12:53

So it’s a week until the meeting with NR and I’d quite like to hit the ground running with regards to the specifications of the artwork (provided the location gets a sign off).

So I’m asking (please!!) for ideas about:
“Sydenham” vs “SE26”

What theme/idea should the art represent - examples so far have ranged from the great north wood, the greyhound, green spaces, the canal which used to be here to no images and simple colourful typography.

Possible colour scheme (there may not be any colours associated with Sydenham but if a lot of people feel one colour would brighten up/fit in well then this could lead)

Obviously there will hopefully be a whole host of ideas/wants and I’ll try to collate them into a functional and appropriate spec which will include the location/size/budget (any ideas for cost/budget/fundraiser total too please - as a yardstick FH’s mural is around £2000) and once okayed, this will go off to local artists to submit a design along with a brief bio.

Any additional thoughts please do post on the forum or email sydenhamural@gmail.com and please continue to spread the word @sydenhamural on twitter or other means.

Hopefully hear back from a fair few of you!!

Thanks!!!

stuart
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Re: Mural?

Post by stuart » 6 Feb 2018 15:36

How about panels depicting the scene as i evolved with:

* Canal
* Atmospheric Railway
* Schools Class engine at full belt
* Blue British Rail slam-door

Any panels left? Then old local pubs? The Greyhound has its own mural so you could start with:

* The Railway
* The Two Half's (yep - shouldn't lose that in the mists of time).

Stuart

mosy
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Re: Mural?

Post by mosy » 6 Feb 2018 15:41

I was trying to figure out what Sydenham's identity is. I know what it isn't, e.g. delis, eateries, antiques, clothes boutiques etc - so what is it?

Surely its appeal is that it's Sydenham for everyone, young and old, rich and poor, or "everyone's Sydenham".

I don't know how that can be pictorially represented, but it isn't green spaces or transport or reasonably priced housing that makes a place somewhere good to live, it's the lively and homely vibe especially during daytime (not a deserted commuter hub) and a feeling of belonging rather than just somewhere you lay your hat.

leenewham
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Re: Mural?

Post by leenewham » 6 Feb 2018 16:13

Regarding murals, identity, branding etc the following isn't possible:

Keep everyone happy.
Incorporate everyones ideas.
Include everything about a place.

Keep the mural simple, is relevant to its place and perhaps performs a task, such as communicating the name of where you are. It should also be beautifully crafted and created by someone who loves what they do.

Look at what various artists do and commission the artist whos work is best suited for the space. it's very difficult getting people to do something that is alien to them.

Give the artist some freedom in the process. Trust them based on past work.

If Penge had discussed every work of art before it went up, nothing would happen. It would be a mistake to discuss it too much over these forums. By all means discuss sites etc and use it to create a shortlist of possible artists, and perhaps the winner, but I woudn't use these forums to design it.

JMLF
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Re: Mural?

Post by JMLF » 6 Feb 2018 18:12

Thanks for the input so far. I’ve also had other input from a few individuals much along Lee’s lines of simple lines (with some feeling a single pictorial theme e.g: CP transmitter in background or green spaces). The location is essentially set with permission pending from Network Rail when they look next week. The artist will definitely have free reign for the piece to submit with the hope that a few common ideas/likes/themes come up that can be suggested for some streamlined spec rather than vague/open.

Here is one of the ideas re: lettering.. which I personally love (the concept not specifically that font/colour etc!)

Image

leenewham
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Re: Mural?

Post by leenewham » 6 Feb 2018 18:27

The Sydenham Transmitter used to be the logo for the Sydenham Society, which I always thought was odd as it's the Crystal Palace Transmitter, not Sydenham (which I why I redesigned the Sydenham Society logo and masterhead to omit it).

There was talk of a local identity based on the first known symbol of Sydenham in Well Park, the Green Dragon. More on that and other logos here (it's a Loooooooong thread!):
https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... ragon+logo

Lionel would do a great job of a retro type based mural.

We also had a look at a mural/Ghost sign on Station Approach years ago with this sign https://whatifsydenham.wordpress.com/20 ... approach/. The landlord of the building approved of it but See3 wouldn't fund it, despite having the funds to do it. Perhaps you might have more luck with someone else. Lionel could work his magic on this with his own version in the panels (they were designed for hand painted signs).

The Clown
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Re: Mural?

Post by The Clown » 7 Feb 2018 07:38

Yes, like the typeface. Simple "Destination achieved". It's like a rubber stamp.

Like the Green Dragon weathervane and branded bin ideas too. Weathervane would go well on the top of the old Cobb's Dept. store. Although I think we need a slightly more dragon-like/updated dragon.

Hopefully some of our shop owners are saving up for new awnings and signage and will ask for design advice.

A smart clean high street makes all the difference to people's pride of the area.

Tim Lund
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Re: Mural?

Post by Tim Lund » 7 Feb 2018 10:31

leenewham wrote:Regarding murals, identity, branding etc the following isn't possible:

Keep everyone happy.
Incorporate everyones ideas.
Include everything about a place.

Keep the mural simple, is relevant to its place and perhaps performs a task, such as communicating the name of where you are. It should also be beautifully crafted and created by someone who loves what they do.

Look at what various artists do and commission the artist whos work is best suited for the space. it's very difficult getting people to do something that is alien to them.

Give the artist some freedom in the process. Trust them based on past work.

If Penge had discussed every work of art before it went up, nothing would happen. It would be a mistake to discuss it too much over these forums. By all means discuss sites etc and use it to create a shortlist of possible artists, and perhaps the winner, but I woudn't use these forums to design it.
100% agreement here.

Murals were also being discussed when the eventually successful project to put up a mosaic on the Sydenham Community Centre was underway - then called the Naborhood Centre. For some more recent local history, here's a thread on the matter

https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 819#p48819

which is still relevant here.

Sydenham's problem is that for any such project to go ahead, it has to be owned in some sense by Chris Best and the Sydenham Society. This is possible thanks to their readiness to use the planning process to prevent any project which they don't own, in this sense. Hence the objections to Lee's ideas for the bridge

https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 65#p168065

The upshot is that what ideas do succeed, such as the Mosaic, do so because they have the heft of Chris and SydSoc behind them. This then supports the idea that these long standing representatives of the local community are the people round here who actually know how to get things done, and those coming in with new ideas naturally look to them for support.

What is different about Penge and Forest Hill is simply that those in similar positions there are less controlling.

leenewham
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Re: Mural?

Post by leenewham » 7 Feb 2018 11:21

This shouldn't be the case though.

Lewisham has a public art policy:
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea/ar ... gy2011.pdf

There should be no need to get the permission of the Sydenham Society or local councillors on every matter. But they should support local initiatives to make the local environment better.

TredownMan
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Re: Mural?

Post by TredownMan » 7 Feb 2018 11:29

Goodness me Tim you make the Syd Soc sound like feudal lords - or perhaps the Cosa Nostra!

If it needs planning permission I'm sure 50 people would be willing to put their names to an email to Lewisham planning to show there's real community backing

Tim Lund
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Re: Mural?

Post by Tim Lund » 7 Feb 2018 12:09

TredownMan wrote:Goodness me Tim you make the Syd Soc sound like feudal lords - or perhaps the Cosa Nostra!

If it needs planning permission I'm sure 50 people would be willing to put their names to an email to Lewisham planning to show there's real community backing
Nothing like feudal lords or the Cosa Nostra. Just the nitty gritty sociology of Sydenham

Larky
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Re: Mural?

Post by Larky » 7 Feb 2018 13:01

Oh God, Tim Lund is back, between him and Leenewham, Sydenham does not stand a chance !

Pally
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Re: Mural?

Post by Pally » 7 Feb 2018 22:25

Larky wrote:Oh God, Tim Lund is back, between him and Leenewham, Sydenham does not stand a chance !
Er what? Tims description of the problem makes a great deal of sense and Lee's genuine enthusiasm has been hammered into the ground precisely because of the problem Tim describes, I suspect!!! I cant believe that Sydenham loses the experience and skills of someone like Lee over time .....looking back at much earlier Sydenham Society newsletters it was evident what he could offer and was....following through it also became evident how that potential faded!!! For that matter there is plenty historically about Tim's contributions too ...!!
On another matter I accept volunteers are ...er ...volunteers ...but too often that becomes an excuse for not doing things that need to be done....which can be for a variety of reasons, including not bothering because the status quo is comfortable or whatever! Being volunteers is also a good passive aggressive tool to throw at people expressing genuine interest, but who may not be able to offer further volunteering support for whatever reason. Its also pretty effective at blocking anyone new who appears who might be tentatively trying to offer help , dip a toe in the water!! Again, put them off and the status quo remains nicely in tact!!

Pally
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Re: Mural?

Post by Pally » 8 Feb 2018 05:05

And back on topic, what you have managed so far re a Mural JLMF is brilliant, taking the initiative , starting something exciting and doing something constructive. It will be great to see it come to fruition!

JMLF
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Re: Mural?

Post by JMLF » 8 Feb 2018 07:42

Pally wrote:And back on topic, what you have managed so far re a Mural JLMF is brilliant, taking the initiative , starting something exciting and doing something constructive. It will be great to see it come to fruition!
Many thanks pal(ly)!
I would hope there will be fruition at the end of it but it’ll all depend in the end on word of mouth/people knowing about the project and contributing cold hard cash towards the set target!

Trying to do things as straight forward and quick as possible to keep people interested/excited and talking about it so at least every week or two there are positive developments!

So do keep spreading the word/getting followers and retweeting/contributing to the project and if anyone knows of a good/cheap local (ideally) place to do flyers/posters (not quite decided if flyers but posters for high street shops for sure) let me know please!!! (Have contacted Sydarts and syd film club to ask them too!)

Thanks again for all the contributions and positivity so far :)

JRW
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Re: Mural?

Post by JRW » 9 Feb 2018 07:33

I am a big fan of the Catford bridge murals etc, but feel that the Sydenham station area is not suited to the large scale format. In Catford the road is much wider and the sightlines are much longer. I think it is best seen from cars and buses, as you move down the road.

Why not think about work that is better seen in close up, aiming it at pedestrians? Something for locals to enjoy rather than passing traffic? That would make the bridge panels an possibility.

I would be very disappointed if it was decided to paint a mural on the beautiful London stock brick wall in the station approach. Surely the Turdis would benefit from a bit of a makeover?

Finally, in my opinion, the best option for a high profile mural would be the framed panels on the curved building in Station Approach. Has the building owner been asked if there is any chance of this being considered?

JMLF
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Re: Mural?

Post by JMLF » 9 Feb 2018 08:27

Thank you for the contributions, I agree that compared to some other areas the “sight lines” aren’t vast from most locations, and especially not from National Rail owned ones (which were decided to be used secondary to relative ease of permission and having an already working relationship with one of the artists who will be submitting a design (Lionel Stanhope who did the large typography based ones in Catford and others).

I think I’ve mentioned it previously (I’m not being negative, just realistic!) but the bridge when proposed some time back as a previous location had kick back from some parties re: health and safety distraction for vehicles!! (Ludicrous if you ask me but to do something and pay for something just for it to be scrubbed away by the council because of complaints/concerns isn’t something i want to risk!) In addition, the bridge at its highest is approximately 6m high (not great for a large scale impact piece) and the sightlines are very poor, however I agree that for more intricate artwork for pedestrians to stop and look at/enjoy, this would be wonderful (ignoring the previous concerns/complaints when attempted before). This particular project is for a large scale typography based piece of artwork for the area. I will ask National Rail re: the bridge as a art location if yourself or anyone else wanted to do a project there with a more picturebased/intricate feel..

In regards to your last question/location, I have been told that this privately owned location has given permission for someone else to do something with (whether that will come to fruition or not) and that aside, the location of it would raise the cost of the project by a large amount secondary to need for a cherry picker and potentially limit those willing/wanting to do art 30 ft in the air off a smallish platform.

The meeting with the National Rail is early next week and he may have changed his mind about permissions or may suggest a better location (I’ve looked and can’t see one that is as large with as much sightlines/visibility) so we will see but for this particular project as it stands that location is the best choice and we will see!

I foresee the mural not taking up all of the wall, 2 or 3 segments and i imagine not entirely top to bottom so a fair bit of the brickwork will still be visible as well as all the brickwork around the Remainder of the wall (all the way to the taxi rank) as well as the inside of the station. I imagine the vast majority of the locations, bridge included will incur someone/s stating that it would be a shame to cover up the brickwork etc, however for this project to date it has been far and few between with a very large proportion in favour or a mural and agreeing when taking into account all variables that this is the best location.

Will keep everyone updated and again thank you for the input :) If this is successful (i suspect it will largely do with word of mouth/monetary contributions then a failing before that) and others want more art/want to do more than very happy to divulge and info I have gathered to date and hand the reigns over to someone else for other art projects (which could include the bridge or a location on the other side of the tracks, a Penge “street jam” street art weekend on various private walls etc.)! :)

Have a lovely weekend all,

Jon / @sydenhamural (Twitter) / sydenhamural@gmail.com

JMLF
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Re: Mural?

Post by JMLF » 9 Feb 2018 08:35

Ps: I’m sure no-one would mind (!) if someone wanted to contact Lewisham Council to get permission for the toilets to be painted. Not sure how easy/quick it would be to get through to right permission/get the okay but if that was done then it should simply be a case of contacting some artists and saying, fancy doing something with this?! As it wouldn’t be commissioned and wouldn’t be illegal, it’s likely that some artist/s would happily have creative freedom and do what they want with to to show off their work and make an unsightly thing a little more sightless for the community!...

leenewham
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Re: Mural?

Post by leenewham » 9 Feb 2018 10:21

The 'Turdis' may have an anti-graffiti coating on it. We were working on a stall as part of a high street regeneration scheme in Uxbridge made of a similar material and couldn't do much with it because of the coating.

I'd check that first.

Tim Lund
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Re: Mural?

Post by Tim Lund » 9 Feb 2018 12:09

JRW wrote: Finally, in my opinion, the best option for a high profile mural would be the framed panels on the curved building in Station Approach. Has the building owner been asked if there is any chance of this being considered?
From slightly fallible memory, I think the owners of this are quite open minded, so should be worth a try

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