My take on London's Riots

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sfhyouthforum
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by sfhyouthforum » 23 Aug 2011 13:23

I've not replied in a while because I'm still weighing up what's more damaging - a looter or Rick Channing's ideas.

Just an observation, but last Thursday, on my way to Stansted airport to catch one of those budget 7am flights, I noticed that most people on the early morning buses headed to the city were black, doing the hard low paid graft nobody wants to do. Then I thought about the people I see stuck selling lollypops and purfume in the toilets of clubs and swanky bars (always makes me cringe with awkwardness), and then the amazing staff in the hospitals who are prepared to do the shitty nightshifts as a lower-waged nurse - so if Rick, you are going to talk about disproportionality then I suggest you be a bit more balanced. Otherwise you just end up sounding like one of those ignorant small minded folk you wouldn’t give any Rolos too, nevermind the last. Know what I mean? I also would like to see some crime statistics to back up your claims, and lastly, I would draw your attention to the ratio of job applicants to vacancies in Lewisham, 14:1, according to my line manager at London Bubble.

Rick Channing
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Rick Channing » 23 Aug 2011 15:28

Still sore over that photo picture of your "youths" I attached, huh?

Though I'm puzzled how you came to the conclusion that all these black folk you shared a train ride with were all commuting to minimum wage employment. I suppose you asked each and every one of them, huh? And why the hell do you cringe when you encounter a toilet hustler? At least they've got a job, annoying as they are. But hey, perhaps if you wanna get ahead as a lowly paid immigrant in the west you should learn some friggin' English before come here! Ever thought about that? But you sound like a hippie, so watcha gonna do. Seriously, you people make me sick.

---------
Expletive deleted - Admin

michael
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by michael » 23 Aug 2011 16:15

Rick Channing wrote:But hey, perhaps if you wanna get ahead as a lowly paid immigrant in the west you should learn some friggin' English before come here! Ever thought about that? But you sound like a hippie, so watcha gonna do. Seriously, you people make me sick.
Thus speaks an immigrant with a fine grasp of English. For those of you who require a little translation (leaving aside the grammar and the foaming mouth):
wanna = wish to
watcha = what are you
gonna = going to
sick = happy to be amongst you beautiful and considerate people

sfhyouthforum
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by sfhyouthforum » 23 Aug 2011 17:57

Also, whilst in hospital with the lovely nurses attending my mother, the doctor prescribed her not to read the Daily Mail - says it's bad for your health.

I'm no doctor (or hippy) but if I were, I prescribe someone gives you Rick a nice warm hug. I'd also recommend you making some friends form more diverse circles. Studies showed after 9/11 that the less diverse middle of America - where there are little jobs let alone trade centres - they found the higest proportion of fear of terrorist attack, as opposed to more diverse coastal cities where planes fly into first. Funny that, don't cha fink?

Just a little understanding of others goes a long way to freeing your mind of all this outdated hysteria. Think about it logically, what could possibly be found that can be proven scientifically to justify your link between colour of skin and criminal behaviour? It's total nonsense.

And re the photo - as I said before, what you did was out of line. Just like a looter, and a riotor. Right and wrong behaviour. And yours was wrong. But I told you. Though will it change your behaviour, hmmm, not so sure. Perhaps I should deal with things from your way of thinking. Now where did I put those rubber bullets... :)

sfhyouthforum
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by sfhyouthforum » 20 Sep 2011 12:36

stats: total 2,590 arrests, 1,507 charged so far. 226 sentenced for their part in the disorder, 77 jailed

via GuySmithReports on Twitter

Eagle
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Eagle » 20 Sep 2011 14:05

All looters should have been jailed.
Again a case of HMG saying one thing and doing another.

Labanised
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Labanised » 21 Sep 2011 08:33

'All looters should have been jailed'.

That I totally agree with.

I hope each and every one of the looters (regardless of colour and taste in music) is jailed for their crimes.

I'll now enjoy some hip-hop on my headphones for a little bit and when I get home from work, I'll swap the KRS-1 for some Tchaikovsky whilst I attack the DIY that has taken a back seat during the summer.

sfhyouthforum
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by sfhyouthforum » 21 Sep 2011 09:24

Jailed for bottled water? Rice?

bensonby
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by bensonby » 21 Sep 2011 10:15

when it came to sentencing for those convicted of rioting-related offences I don't think the actual value of the goods they may have stole is actually important. Committing an offence during a riot is, in itself, a huge aggravating factor: they were contributing to and exacerbating the gross lawlessness that was taking place.

Therefore, yes, stealing some water merited a custodial sentence. It's not like these people were dying of hunger or thirst.

Eagle
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Eagle » 21 Sep 2011 10:32

Well said Bensonby.

Annie
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Annie » 21 Sep 2011 10:33

I agree with you Bensonby,
They were not dying of hunger or thirst,They probably had tvs already, up to date clothes etc etc,It wasn't what they stole, it was the action of taking part in mass lawlessness, My niece was out there that night as a volunteer helping back up the police numbers.perhaps these hoodlems should try doing something productive for a change,also what did surprise me was many came from good law-abiding families.
no excuses no leniency.

These idiot deserve to be dealt with, using the full force of the law.

Labanised
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Labanised » 21 Sep 2011 10:49

If a person is caught and convicted of Looting then, (in my opinion) a custodial sentence is warranted.
If a person is hungry or thirsty and is compelled to steal a loaf of bread or water in order to survive, I think compassion will suffice.

Going out on a night of violence to commit an offence against persons and/ or property does not (again, in my opinion) warrant compassion.

I may be wrong but, that is my opinion and I'd be interested and open to discuss why that view is so repellent.

Stating 'Jailed for bottled water? Rice?' implies something other than what I have written and I think my sentence was clear on the distinction between looters and those with a genuine need for sustenance. If it wasn't, I apologise for the lack of clarity.

Labanised
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Labanised » 21 Sep 2011 10:56

At the risk of sounding unsympathetic, I'm sure there were plenty of opportunities for said looters to legally enter an establishment and purchase a bag of rice or a bottle of water.

Again, I am happy and open to discussion but, lets leave the one-liners for another topic.

Eagle
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Eagle » 21 Sep 2011 12:06

Or even drink water from a tap as I do.

Looters and Rioters do not deserve compassion. We can remember what compassion they showed some by standers.

Labanised
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Labanised » 21 Sep 2011 14:48

I do want to be clear about not wanting to conduct an ad hominem attack on anyone.

So, my view is that if you loot and are caught and convicted for that offence then, you take the consequences.
...just like the girl in the Evening Standard tonight who is in court for looting from five different shops and happens to be a millionaires daughter
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... g-shops.do

That can be read as being responsible for your actions and therefore; being disadvantaged, misunderstood or lacking moral guidance is not a mitigating circumstance for looting and as such, no compassion is forthcoming from me.

The opening post was spot on (and i've enjoyed sfhyouthforum's other posts and blogs), unlike the comment about being jailed for looting rice and water.

stuart
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by stuart » 21 Sep 2011 16:36

Labanised wrote:... my view is that if you loot and are caught and convicted for that offence then, you take the consequences.
Who can disagree with that?

The consequences for different people are quite different. For the habitual criminal its just a return to his second home where he can sharpen up on his skills and do a bit of useful networking. Opinions differ whether jail works for these sort but I guess no one has found a better solution and we are excused further crimes for a period at not inconsiderable cost.

For people who got caught in a moment of madness and committed their first serious crime (and it was serious no matter whether water bottle or Plasma TV) what is it we are trying to achieve? For those that came forward, returned goods and confessed - there is surely hope that it remains just that - an isolated moment of madness. Send them to jail and you effectively rule them out of a number of careers (special dispensation is required to teach, nurse or doctor). If you volunteer to do something good years down the line it will come up on your CRB. Will they want to volunteer?

Remove good careers, substitute an opportunity to join the criminal classes and be sent to a criminal training camp. Is this really such a good idea? Is it not all of us who lose out on that?

There were sheep and wolves on that night. A wise farmer separates the two. So should we.

Stuart

Eagle
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by Eagle » 21 Sep 2011 17:00

Trouble is Stuart prison is too soft. Colour TV, Gyms even demanding the right to vote.
We need to go back a century so they know prison not a soft option.

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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by stuart » 21 Sep 2011 21:11

Trouble is Eagle is there is no other option without spending a currently unthinkable amount of money to change the prison structure. The number of prison officers means essentially except for the hardest cases the prisoners have to run things themselves and be kept happy otherwise control, such as it is, is lost. They are on a knife edge.

Its a poor show. Neither you on the right have a prison service able to run a hard ship nor are the resources there for educating/rehabilitating as the soft left might wish. Nobody is happy. And its not going to get better.

Which is why I have a tendency to wish to keep people away from prison if at all possible. Its such a mess.

Stuart

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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by leenewham » 21 Sep 2011 22:12

Stuart. Nail. Head. I had an uncle in the prison service. So called 'soft prison' is about stopping prisoners rioting. But no prisoners want to actually be there. Most inmates re- offend. Prison is not an effective deterrent. Period. But harsh sentences are popular based in vengeance rather than evaluation and evidence. There have to be proper solutions to real problems evaluated on evidence, not knee jerk emptive responses.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] Image

bensonby
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Re: My take on London's Riots

Post by bensonby » 21 Sep 2011 22:27

we are straying into a debate over what the purpose of punishment is..... which is an interesting topic.

I'm firmly of the belief that vengence has no place in any judicial process. However, I also think "prevention" actually comes quite low down on the list also. The primar objective of the system of punishment should be to "right the wrong". That is, if someone steals/damages your property then they should pay back the value of the loss and pay back the costs that the person/state has lost in bringing you to justice. Then the punishment can start - be it to reform you etc.

If you are unable to pay compensation then you should be indentured - working at an equivalent rate to minimum wage - until your debt is cleared. Or the suspect should be forced to pay back at a weekly rate that he can afford until the debt is cleared - even if that means 20 years of paying back a pound a week....

Why should victims have lost out even once their criminal is caught?

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